I beleive that there is plenty of room in the church of Jesus for women to be involved in preaching.  As you say there is evidence in Titus and Timothy that pastoring is reserved for men.  However there are many places in the Bible that we understand are meant to be without gender and made simpler to not have all of the pronouns.  These passages are generally understood to not be gender specific.  When these passages are refering to men being husbands of one wife then that makes them a little bit harder to deal with however it is still quite possble that Paul, knowing he was addressing men used that specific gender without intending to make a universal approach. 

If a women were to be set against the templates that were left in Titus and Timothy I see nothing that would preclude them if this is the understanding.  I do agree that it becomes important to look at it then in the veiw of more scripture.

In Acts 2 Peter quotes from Joel in which it states that both men and women will preach.  There is one other place in Acts where this is confirmed.  Acts 21:6 speaks of Phillip's four daughters that were all preachers.

I think it all together fitting and very desirable that God would call women into preaching ministry.  I personaly see no conflict or trouble in the Bible.  As I see it the more pastors we have that are preaching God's Word the sooner we can communicate Christ's love to everyone.  Quite a few churches feel the same and ordain women for pastoral ministry. 

lions 84
please provide scriptural support for your oppinion that women are not qualified to be pastors of a New Testament church.  I appreciate your oppinion but need to validate it with scripture.  Thank you.

I understand your point.  I made it myself in the earlier post.  However, it is important to note that Paul was addressing Titus in one instance and Timothy in the other respect.  It would stand to reason then that Paul would use the masculine gender when addressing a man.  If he were to have addressed Phillips daughters would we be having the refraction of this conversation?  As I see it there is no reason to believe that God via Paul was making this an exclusive MAN thing as you seem to imply.  The one puzzling verse that you posted is I Tim. 2:12.  I am going to have to do some digging on that because I have never found the Bible to even slightly contradict itself.  I will say that I was annoyed by your highlighting the letters MAN even so far as to highlight them in the word woman and manager.  This is infantile and ridiculous.  It makes you seem ill-equiped to discuss such matters at best and taking it to its worst conclusion makes you seem to be reprehensibly chauvinistic.  You also posted I Tim 2:8 as one of your proof texts that women should not pastor.  Are you saying by posting that verse that women ought not to pray?  I laughed out loud when I saw it. 
I would be happy to engage in productive discussion but I find this to be lacking.  All due respect to you Mr. Lions84 but I would hope that we could respectfully engage in dialog that would enhance your understanding of God's Word, my understanding and everyone that reads here.

pastorwes,
lions84 was scriptually correct! God's best for us is for men to take responsibility in both the home and in the church. It may not be culturally acceptable this day and age, but then the bible isn't designed to be. It is however designed to guide and lead us into all truth. God has used women in many ministry roles because men have not stepped up to the plate so to speak and taken the responsibility to do the ministry He has called us to. Women have and continue to be willing vessels for Him to use, but God's command is for men to lead in the church and the home. We will have to answer to Him for failing to do so, and we miss out on His blessings as well. Women have many ministry roles that God has ordained for them to do, this is not said to diminish women in any way or to be chauvinistic in any way. It is simply the truth God has said in His word, which Mr. lions84 correctly spelled out.


 

I'm glad that we can have this discussion and I appreciate the open friendly response that I received from you pocadots and pastordale.  I do understand that it is hard to determine voice inflection and what is really inferred by all of the emphases that lions84 added.  I still believe that those were inappropriate and unkind but would welcome an explanation from him, of course. 

Let me also say that while the church I am a part of gladly ordains women as pastors and, while I feel this to be clearly within the bounds of scripture, I respect the fact that you probably belong to a church that stands in opposition to it.  I will be the first to admit that no church has a corner on the truth and there are certainly facets of error within any denomination.  You are entitled to be wrong on this one.  (just kidding hehe).

pastor dale you said " lions84 was scriptually correct!" 

I wonder...the scriptures that I presented, were those not scriptural?  I feel certain that the presence of preachers that were clearly women in the book of Acts would be considered some pretty good scriptural support.  I also think that the support that was presented by BlesedPastorsWife was pretty scriptural.  I am not going to deny the scriptural emphasis of lions84 but I do feel that my response was also scripturally based.

Let me also add that according to the reading that I have done there are fewer women pastors today than there have been in recent history.  The 1920s was the high-water mark for women pastors.  There is a real desire in some denominations to encourage more women pastors to answer the call.

Let me add one other thing.  I for one feel that the more women pastors the better.  I can't possibly be a pastor to everyone that needs one.  I would like to be, for that would make for a pretty nice paycheck but the truth of the matter is that I am limited.  I don't know if you have noticed but I certainly have, that there is incredible diversity within the group of pastors that I have met.  They come in all shapes and sizes.  They come with all backgrounds.  Some are bold and brash others are quiet and reserved but all of them seem to have a place to serve and people that grow under their shepherding.  I feel that as long as any pastorman or womenpreaches Christ and Him crucified and as a result people discover the life that comes through Jesus why would we not ALL get excited about that?  Paul said this,

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill.  The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.  The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.  But what does it matter?  The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached.  And because of this I rejoice. (Philippians 1:15-18)

Regardless of the position of my church, I am excited when the message of Christ is preached for through this foolishness called preaching people have the opportunity to hear and respond to the message.  The more preachers that teach Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life the better I will like it.  It really doesn't matter to me if they also feel that church has to be on Saturday, Sunday, or Thursday afternoon, or that you can or can't loose your Salvation, or that the bread and the wine becomes the body and blood before after or never or whether your dunked, poured, sprinkled, or bathed with fire, or a host of other "scriptural" but less essential truths than the lostness of man and his need of a Savior.  The fact that God provided his only Son, Jesus to live, die, and be resurrected providing a way for sinful men to receive Christ and by so doing have relationship with God.  And that Jesus ascended into heaven and is there right now making intercession for us all and will continue to do so until that wonderful day when we shall be joined with Him forever.

Anyone, my brothers, that preaches this message and as a result of thier obedience and the work of the Holy Spirit, see people respond to the message of Christ; this causes me to rejoice and I would think that every believer in Jesus would also want to rejoice regardless of the motive or (might I add) gender of the preacher.

The issue pastorwes is not whether we should rejoice that Christ is preached (regardless of the gender or motive) but the Biblical basis for women pastors.  I felt that you confused the issue at the end of your last post.  Certainly we can agree that there is a difference between preaching and serving as pastor.  I do not doubt that women can preach and do preach (not that I am inclined to sit under a woman's preaching), the issue is whether it is Biblical for them to pastor a local church.  It seems abundantly clear in Scripture that that is not His intention for women to do so.  Does it happen?  Yes.  Should it happen?  I don't believe God intended it to be so.Also, if the intent of the Titus and Timothy scriptures was to be the husband of one wife or the wife of one husband, don't you think the Holy Spirit would have clearly spelled it out that way?  Sometimes I think what the Bible doesn't say is just about as important as what the Bible does say.  Too often, we want to read something into Scripture when it simply is not there.  I don't subscribe to the notion that God can't communicate clearly.  The Scriptures in Titus and Timothy are not only clear, but are supported by so much other evidence in Scripture (previously cited in posts on this thread) that it hardly seems plausible that God would have ordained otherwise.  When one looks at the whole of creation, the role of male and female, Old Testament history and New Testament theology, the evidence mounts mighty high that God's design is for man to take the responsibility of leadership and I think that's what pastoring is all about.Finally, I would be interested to see how you interpret I Tim. 2:11-15 and its implications.  Is not the divine order of the sexes supposed to have a bearing on this issue?  I ask this at the risk of being branded a chauvinist, but it would be a faulty assumption since people on this thread do not know how highly I value the female gender.

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Originally posted by: <b>TheRev</b>The issue pastorwes is not whether we should rejoice that Christ is preached (regardless of the gender or motive) but the Biblical basis for women pastors.  I felt that you confused the issue at the end of your last post.  Certainly we can agree that there is a difference between preaching and serving as pastor.  With all due respect, pastorwes, your posts do not make a distinction between preaching and pastoring.  The question before us is in regards to women pastors, not women preachers.  Is there not a difference?