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Regarding your statement: "What it really takes to convince is a willingness to listen to the Holy Spirit."
Without any intentions to usurp, I would like to qualify the word "willingness" in connection with "convincing" based on Scripture.
The first question is: Where does this "willingness" originate? Does it come from some kind of superior quality in some individuals that others do not possess?
Scripture throws the light on with:
Philippians 2:13 NIV "For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."
Jeremiah 32:38-41 NKJV
"They shall be My people, and I will be their God; {39} 'then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear [respect] Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them."
The
regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone. The human will does not cooperate with God's grace in order to be regenerated as if salvation is not complete until the individual performs some action(s)…like being "willing". The apostle John recorded Jesus saying to Nicodemus that we naturally love darkness, hate the light and WILL NOT come into the light (John 3:19, 20). And since our hardened resistance to God is thus seated in our affections, only God, by His grace, can lovingly change, overcome and pacify our rebellious disposition. The natural man, apart from the quickening work of the Holy Spirit, will not come to Christ and is not "willing" on his own since he is at enmity with God and cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14). Shining a light into a blind man's eyes will not enable him to see, because eyesight first requires a set of healthy eyes. Likewise, reading or hearing the word of God alone cannot elicit saving faith in the reader (1 Thess 1:4, 5) unless God plows up the fallow ground of our hearts and the Spirit "germinates" the seed of the word, opening our eyes to see Christ's true beauty and excellency and uniting us to Him through a Spirit-wrought faith. .
Desicess, please address the arguments against an absolute interpretation by "natural reading" of the Bible that I posed in my previous post.
You cannot even provide jusitfication for the pre-conditions of intelligibility. You make claims that there is no absolute knowledge while making absolute claims.
Once again, I am not making absolutist claims about the nature of knowledge, but about the limits of the human mind (we cannot know everything, at least not in any way that I know possible). I address the preconditions of intelligibility in this thread, so please contest what I say there.
Also, for all of those who read the Bible in a non-natural way, is it not ironic how you advocate a non-natural reading while expecting others to read your posts or understand you naturally?
As I said in my earlier post: "When we "naturally read" other literature, often there is no single meaning or "truth" behind the words. Meanings can be multiple or layered, and one is not necessarily more true than another. But assuming there is one meaning or interpretation a story, that story, and most literature, does not make absolute metaphysical, epistemological or ethical claims like the ones you are drawing from the Bible, so the "sloppiness" of human understanding regarding the meaning of most literature is not very critical."
Also, the purpose and context of our discussions here are quite well defined: TTP is a Christian program, and most threads have more or less defined questions and topics. But even so, there is often confusion about what is being said. Many times I have misunderstood what you or others have written, and vice versa. Language is actually quite a sloppy means of communicating because of the looseness of definitions and grammar, but even in spite of that it is still a workable medium, and probably the most effective that we have.
Why should I argue with you about how Scripture should be interpreted when I already know that before you even read the Bible, you assume that it is false.
From another post of mine (I think posted after your first response, so perhaps you did not see it before you wrote this): "I usually "assume" a theistic version of my worldview when posting here, because as pointed out by the TTPAdmin1, this is not a place to ""recruit" others to distrust the Bible, or disbelieve in God". So I do not question the existence of God here, but I will often raise objections to Christian orthodoxy."
I think it has been long enough where I have addressed your intellect so I will speak to your conscience.
Frankly, I feel that you have not addressed my intellect with your arguments, at least not to any deep level. You insist that I cannot account for the preconditions of intelligibility, therefore everything I say beyond them is irrational. And since I said that I am an atheist I am sure you consider me even more irrational, though many of my ideas are consistent with a Christian worldview (again I refer you to Kierkegaard). I have accounted for the preconditions (and we should discuss them in the appropriate threads), and I have also contested some of your claims (i.e. an absolute interpretation of the Bible), but I have yet to see responses to my comments.
Please click this link and be open to this view as you have stated that you are open (this link is for everyone to view also):
I appreciate your sincerity, but nothing that I see on that website is new to me. I was "kind of" a Christian for all of my childhood, and then "really" a Christian when I was a teenager, so I am no stranger to the message of the Christ. I have studied and read the Bible multiple times, and I know the basic tenants of Christianity (though admittedly, my knowledge of specific scripture is not so good anymore).
If you truly want to "witness" to me, it must be through intellectual arguments. I drifted away from Christianity because of so many unanswered questions. In the end, I simply could not accept even the central message because it seemed so intellectually backward to me. (I won't get into those arguments here because I am not here to proselytize you to atheism, and the TTPAdmin would probably not permit it anyway. Though I will say that some of the questions and discussions here were ones that caused me to leave Christianity.)
--Dr. Strangelove, I would welcome a thoughtful thread about your unanswered questions, provided it's posted in its own thread, provided the unanswered questions are dealt with one at a time so they can be addressed (two at a time if they're related), and provided you are sincerely interested in finding answers. I think others would welcome the opportunity to show answers where others might have failed. In many ways, that's what we're here for. I offered this same opportunity to Mojo, but I don't believe he was sincerely interested in finding answers. -- TTPAdmin1
What I've gathered from most of your comments in various posts is that your worldview is primarily rooted in existentialism ("existence precedes essence"). Your worldview attempts to find purpose and meaning ultimately from the particulars (i.e. specific details of life and the physical or observed world) or inside the "cosmic cube".
Yes, my worldview is rooted primarily in existentialism, but I disagree with what you say about it. One does not find purpose and meaning, one creates purpose and meaning. Meaning and purpose are not limited to particulars, but can also be in transcendent and immaterial things (for example in God), so it is not limited to physical reality.
That is why Christianity is primarily rooted in biblical ontology and all the particulars become secondary. That's what makes Christianity unique from all other worldviews.
Okay, thank you for clarifying, I understand a little better what you were trying to say initially. Though I cannot list specific examples, I think that at least some other worldviews have a similar basis (i.e. that God is truth, constant, eternal, etc.)
Note: It appears that you made an erroneous statement here: "In existentialism "being" is fundamental to, and precedes the meaning of life."
Being or Essence by definition are ontological, NOT existential. In other words ontology (the study of being, existence and reality) primarily deals with the ultimate "meaning of life". On the other hand, existentialism (a philosophical movement) primarily deals with the subjective conditions of existence.
Perhaps my original post was not clear, I was not calling "being" or "essence" existential ideas. As you point out, these are a part of ontology, which is more generally a branch of philosophy. What I was trying to say is that ontology is very important in existentialism (just as other philosophies give more/less importance to metaphysics, ethics, epistemology, etc.). Existentialism is an attempt to define the ultimate meaning of life, which it says is subjective, and not objective or absolute.
The above two examples you referred to do not make a positive case for the claim that logic is empirical. Instead it illustrates an irrational worldview attempting to dismiss the reality of absolute truths.
Again, I am not trying to make the case that logic is empirical. Frankly, I do not care so much if it is empirical, because I do not think it is necessary that it is so for my worldview. There are two people (in the article) that espouse the idea that logical may be empirical, and their ideas are based on the questions/ideas of other people that classical logic may need to be revised in light of the "new reality" of quantum mechanics. So though the link refers to the title of two papers that were published, the idea extends beyond just those papers.
As for the assumptive language in the title, I completely agree with you. Nothing annoys me more when I see the news and they say something like: "is eating chocolate/being a little overweight/drinking red wine/sleeping in/etc. really as bad for you as you think? More on that after this break!"
My intention in pointing out those two examples was not to argue that they are true, but to present opposing ideas because they may help you better understand your own. To know only one position (i.e. only your own) and no others is plain and willful ignorance. (Please do not misunderstand what I just said, I am not calling you ignorant. Obviously you read the article, but if you had refused to read it simply because you think logic cannot possibly be empirical, then I would call that willful ignorance) If you are a Republican, don't you know the positions of the Democrats? "Know your enemy", otherwise you are impotent to defend your own position, much less attack another position! So in a way, even though we disagree we are helping each other by exposing each other to other arguments. ![]()
Dr. Strangelove,
Desicess, please address the arguments against an absolute interpretation by "natural reading" of the Bible that I posed in my previous post.
I apologize for the delay I have been busy lately in due time I will respond to your post I will appreciate your patience.
Once again, I am not making absolutist claims about the nature of knowledge, but about the limits of the human mind (we cannot know everything, at least not in any way that I know possible). I address the preconditions of intelligibility in this thread, so please contest what I say there.
So you are making absolute claims about the limits of the human mind. So you do recognize that there is such things as absolute knowledge. I am glad that we now agree on the fact that there is absolute knowledge. Now the parenthesis part is a misunderstanding. I did not claim that we know everything, but I do claim that in order to know things God and the Bible must be true. I too recognize that this discussion will better suffice in another thread.
As I said in my earlier post: "When we "naturally read" other literature, often there is no single meaning or "truth" behind the words. Meanings can be multiple or layered, and one is not necessarily more true than another. But assuming there is one meaning or interpretation a story, that story, and most literature, does not make absolute metaphysical, epistemological or ethical claims like the ones you are drawing from the Bible, so the "sloppiness" of human understanding regarding the meaning of most literature is not very critical."
Also, the purpose and context of our discussions here are quite well defined: TTP is a Christian program, and most threads have more or less defined questions and topics. But even so, there is often confusion about what is being said. Many times I have misunderstood what you or others have written, and vice versa. Language is actually quite a sloppy means of communicating because of the looseness of definitions and grammar, but even in spite of that it is still a workable medium, and probably the most effective that we have.
With the presuppositions of God, the Bible is not a story book it is more like a historical textbook. From Scripture we can learn multiple or layered meanings, however, the actual events of the Bible did literally occur. By those actual events literally occuring, the Bible is not just a mere storybook, but it is an acual text that can be applied to reality. In fact, only the Bible makes sense of reality because I am absolutely sure that it provides the only worldview that can account for the fact that we have knowledge. Also, when comparing other religious doctrines to the Bible, the other doctrines are contradictory, not consisitent, not self-attesting. They cannot provide a worldview that makes sense of reality (If you have questions about a specific religion that you may wish to compare I suggest opening another thread for this and we can further discuss this).
From another post of mine (I think posted after your first response, so perhaps you did not see it before you wrote this): "I usually "assume" a theistic version of my worldview when posting here, because as pointed out by the TTPAdmin1, this is not a place to ""recruit" others to distrust the Bible, or disbelieve in God". So I do not question the existence of God here, but I will often raise objections to Christian orthodoxy."
Actually as long as we do not agree on the same presuppositions, we will be talking past each other. I am glad that you acknowledge the existence of God, but do you acknowledge the existence of the true God? What is it that stops you from believing in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit? Please post a thread to ask questions as TTP said.
Frankly, I feel that you have not addressed my intellect with your arguments, at least not to any deep level. You insist that I cannot account for the preconditions of intelligibility, therefore everything I say beyond them is irrational. And since I said that I am an atheist I am sure you consider me even more irrational, though many of my ideas are consistent with a Christian worldview (again I refer you to Kierkegaard). I have accounted for the preconditions (and we should discuss them in the appropriate threads), and I have also contested some of your claims (i.e. an absolute interpretation of the Bible), but I have yet to see responses to my comments.
Your worldview is inheretly irrational as an atheist thus the claims that stem from your worldview logically follows as irrational. If you have an unreliable worldview, your claims or bias are unreliable. Your ultimate standard is not self-consistent and self-attesting. Even as you argue against the claims that I have made proves that you are wrong. Here is how though many of my ideas are consistent with a Christian worldview (again I refer you to Kierkegaard). When you say though many of your ideas are consistent with the Christian worldview you are borrowing from that worldview. The biblical worldview and your worldview are contradictory to each other therefore only one worldview must be right and true. Which one is it, the biblical worldview or Dr. Strangelove's worldview? It cannot logically be both. Which worldview makes sense of reality? Which worldview is rational?
I appreciate your sincerity, but nothing that I see on that website is new to me. I was "kind of" a Christian for all of my childhood, and then "really" a Christian when I was a teenager, so I am no stranger to the message of the Christ. I have studied and read the Bible multiple times, and I know the basic tenants of Christianity (though admittedly, my knowledge of specific scripture is not so good anymore).
If you truly want to "witness" to me, it must be through intellectual arguments. I drifted away from Christianity because of so many unanswered questions. In the end, I simply could not accept even the central message because it seemed so intellectually backward to me. (I won't get into those arguments here because I am not here to proselytize you to atheism, and the TTPAdmin would probably not permit it anyway. Though I will say that some of the questions and discussions here were ones that caused me to leave Christianity.)
If you are sincerely looking for answers, then TTP and the community will do our best to address your questions.
Dr. Strangelove has this to say: "If you truly want to "witness" to me, it must be through intellectual arguments. I drifted away from Christianity because of so many unanswered questions. In the end, I simply could not accept even the central message because it seemed so intellectually backward to me. (I won't get into those arguments here because I am not here to proselytize you to atheism, and the TTPAdmin would probably not permit it anyway. Though I will say that some of the questions and discussions here were ones that caused me to leave Christianity."
Please allow me to reply, notwithstanding your position and your condition of a "drifted away Christian". Scripture clearly speaks of this phenomenon which I will refer to in an attempt to shed light on what seems to be an incongruity in this discussion.
RE.
"If you truly want to "witness" to me, it must be through intellectual arguments." And… "Desicess, please address the arguments against an absolute interpretation by "natural reading" of the Bible that I posed in my previous post."
Reply:
In short, both of your requests are structured for gridlock. It is right to use reason as a servant of the text but the guidance of the Holy Spirit is essential for its proper understanding. The following is a compilation of the reasons why:1 Cor.2:14
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."First and foremost this passage insists on itself as the foundation for all spiritual discussions.
ROMANS 8:
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind [f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
1Corinthians 1:25 For the "foolishness" of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the "weakness" of God is stronger than human strength. Romans 11: 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written: NOTE: Rejection of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin. None are punished by the justice of God, but those who hate to be reformed by the grace of God Your persistence with this topic suggests that you are trying to reach God through human intellect and insight. That is certainly better than indifference as the search has not ended. Mortal conceit and the evolving standards of humanity will never be a new talking point. It is a natural condition for the natural man but runs counter to the new man through faith in the Savior Christ Jesus via God the Holy Spirit. There is no amount of sophistry and deductive powers of word salad that are equal to the task of trumping the Holy Spirit. I know you will never reply to me because I see these debates as God sees them:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day." 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[
"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly." 2 Timothy 2:16 One of my least favorite things to discuss is "religion". My favorite thing to discuss is Jesus. Does this seem like a contradiction to you? There were those at Paul's time who sounded religious, but had removed Christ and his great love from their conversation. What were they left with? They were left with a bunch of rules and "Club Intellect" that resembled the church but offered nothing to help people. They actually drove people away from Christ rather than to him. I do not believe these kind of religion/intellect conversations lead to anything of value. I try not to get ensnared by them and attempt to steer these discussions around to talking about my Savior and His great love for mankind. That is not what is encouraged on this site which leaves me in a position to only say that the power that passes all understanding lies in the gift of God the Holy Spirit. Won’t you give Him another try? Apostle Paul: "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."
1 Corinthians 2:2
Dr_Strangelove wrote:
So if I had to sum up my argument in one sentence, it would be that you cannot escape the aspect of human understanding in reading, because humans are doing the reading!
I think that this is a very good point and I also cannot see any response to this in the replies to you. I would add to it a bit and ask, who's natural reading do we adhere to? Since human understanding is limited to their grasp of linguistics, and their knowledge of the context of the text, different people will naturally read the bible in different ways. As I've said before, the best way to overcome this is to study history, context, original language, and what theologians have discerned about the passages. I don't believe that you will find any professor of ancient literature, from any university, or of any faith, who would think that a natural reading is the best place to start when examining a document written a couple thousand years ago. When I read large books on apologetics such as ones by William Lane Craig, he never starts with a natural reading of the english, he starts with the context and the original language.
God bless,
Phil
Desicess, I see several problems with your claiming absolute truth from a "natural reading" of the Bible (absolute being the keyword). The main argument of your post about "natural reading" is that historical and grammatical context are used to understand the intention of the author and when a certain passage is literal, allegorical, etc. But the problem I see with your approach is that history and grammar are both understood by the human mind! Our knowledge of history is not nearly complete as desired, nor is it always objective (there is often bias in historical records). Regrettably, much (most even?) history, especially about the ancient world has been irretrievably lost. Just think about the tremendous amount of knowledge about history, philosophy, science, literature, everything imaginable, that has been forever lost, burned in the libraries of the ancient world! My point being that we have only a patchwork picture of history, and much of what has been recorded was written by often biased scribes of the state or the church. One of my favorite quotes about history is from Napolean Bonaparte: "Qu'est-ce que l'histoire, sinon une fable sur laquelle tout le mond est d'accord?" ("What is history, but a fable upon which the whole world is in agreement?").
A combination of the human mind and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit aids us to read absolute truth from Scripture. The key is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, He renews our mind. But because you are an agnostic you clearly would have no clue what I am talking about. Everything has a bias behind it the question is which bias holds up to rational scrutiny. Your bias does not. I find it ironic how you claim that history is unreliable while at the same time accepting a quote from Napolean as actual history. How do you know Napolean really said that quote? According to your own standard you cannot even rely on knowing that Napolean actually said that quote. Also, according to your own standard that there is no absolute knowledge, you can never be absolutely sure Napolean even existed.
Grammar is also a very tricky subject, and one thing you learn while studying grammar is that there are many exceptions to the rules! I often wondered why many of the books I read in school were not always written in proper English, according to rules of grammar, and one of my teachers told me that it is because writers don't have to follow the rules! But we are not talking about English (of which there are several variants or dialects), but three different languages: Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and I think even some variants/dialects thereof. So this presents numerable challenges to the casual reader because they are limited to their own language/s (by "casual" I mean not fluent in the original languages). So there are translations, right? Yes, but translation is imperfect. As anyone who speaks more than one language will tell you, most of the time there is not a direct translation between two languages that conveys the exact meaning or intent of the original. Many translated books are often prefaced by a "translator's note", in which they discuss the subtleties of the original language, their "approach" to translation (do they literally translate a text or attempt to translate the symbolism? what if it is a poem and should rhyme?), etc., basically saying that: "translations are hard, and this is not exactly what the original author said or meant!"
So if I were to take a textbook that was written in spanish and translate it to english you believe that the translation would be unreliable because it is a hard task. By your own standard you cannot communicate outside of your own language. Go to Moscow and read a Russian newspaper, but remember you cannot rely on what it says. Even if you get a translator you cannot rely on what it says still by your own standard. When you read the Bible translations they all convey the same message and the same meaning and they have been consistent for thousands of years.
Next, consider what we know about the early Hebrews and Christians. Most of our knowledge about these peoples - their history, culture, language, etc. - comes to us from the Bible (there are other sources of information, but the primary source is the Bible). History, culture and language… these are the things that you use to understand the context of the Bible, so in essence you are using the Bible to understand the Bible and justify a certain interpretation (an absolute meaning). Imagine reading Oliver Twist: you have no knowledge of the English language, and your only other sources for understanding the book are an English dictionary, and some of the other books written by Charles Dickens. Do you expect to know the precise intention of Dickens? To understand all of the subtleties of the story and see the layers of meaning?
One difference between Charles Dickens and God is that Charles Dickens is dead. God is alive and His Spirit dwells in true believers so the original intention of the author, God, is easily understood by those who yield to Him. But of course because you are an agnostic you once again have no clue what I am talking about. Also, Oliver Twist is fiction based on literal history. The Bible is non-fiction based on literal history. You have compared apples with oranges. They are not the same.
Which books constitute the Biblical canon is another question or criticism that often comes up. I am sure many of you have heard about this question/criticism before, so I will not elaborate on it. Besides, I think that my comments about history and grammar are more important in my criticism of "natural reading" to reach an absolute interpretation of the Bible.
The 66 Books from Genesis to Revelation are canon. Here is an article about this:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v3/n1/look-at-the-canon
A couple of other notes, not necessarily in argument to "natural reading", but I think important to note. The Bible was not originally segmented into chapters and verses, so any "clear" changes from literal to allegorical that we see (i.e. Genesis 1-5 literal, Genesis 6-9 allegory) may not have been so clear originally. When the Bible finally was segmented, the way it was segmented often varied with time! And finally, I would venture to say that the majority of Christians throughout history have not read the Bible. Until relatively recently, most people (Christians) simply could not read, so their understanding of the Bible was mediated almost entirely by religious leaders or anecdotal retellings. And as for more recently, well I am sure you know what I mean when I say "once-a-week Christian", many of whom have only a limited understand of the Bible. My point being that most people, even Christians, have not "read truth".
Unfortunately you are right about the "once a week Christians", but just because there are those Christains does not mean that all Christians are the same. That is the logical fallacy of hasty generalization. Also, I do not see how that connects to the reliability of Scripture. Also, your claim about mediation does not affect the reliability of Scripture. Again Scripture has had the same meaning and same content consistently for thousands of years. I do not segment the book of Genesis to say chapter 1-2 is literal and 3-5 is allegorical you have misunderstood. My claim is that the entire Book of Genesis is a literal historical narrative granted there are some figurative language within, just like any piece of literature.
So if I had to sum up my argument in one sentence, it would be that you cannot escape the aspect of human understanding in reading, because humans are doing the reading! I think, and I am sure you would agree, that human understanding is limited and fallible. So this is why I see your claims to absolute knowledge via "natural reading" of the Bible troublesome. When we "naturally read" other literature, often there is no single meaning or "truth" behind the words. Meanings can be multiple or layered, and one is not necessarily more true than another. But assuming there is one meaning or interpretation a story, that story, and most literature, does not make absolute metaphysical, epistemological or ethical claims like the ones you are drawing from the Bible, so the "sloppiness" of human understanding regarding the meaning of most literature is not very critical.
Your main arguement is that the human mind is unreliable, thus the human can never know absolute knowledge. I do not accept this claim, but for the sake of arguement lets test this by applying it to you Dr. Strangelove. Your human mind is unrelaible thus, you can never have absolute knowledge of anything. You cannot even have absolute knowledge that you are reading this post or that you are thinking about some reply. Therefore I have some questions:
Are you absolutely sure that you are reading this post or thinking about responding?
How can you be sure if by your own standard, you cannot rely on your unreliable human mind?
You are angry with God aren't you?
Or is it that you want to be God?
Lets discuss morality here:
Are you a good person Dr. Strangelove?
Dr. Strangelove writes:
REPLY:
Your perception of Christianity being rooted in "logical Biblical theory" [ontology]" misses the mark. Logic and theory have nothing to do with FAITH. The dictionary defines faith as: "the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity." I would be interested to know what faith means to you.Scripture defines faith: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." ~ Hebrews 11.
This concept flies in the face of humanistic "logic and theory".
To have faith is to have confidence in something or someone resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity. Herein lies the "uniqueness", that you spoke of, concerning Christianity.
Historical fact, backed by a myriad of witnesses, declares that Jesus Christ [God in the flesh] died at the hands of man but came back to life after three days, as He promised, thereby authenticating who He is and what He said. No other "religion" makes that claim for their authority on what is truth. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by [faith in] Me. ~ John 14
Where does your authority come from relating to what you believe…yourself or other fallible, finite humans who were created by God?
Yet, this is not the means of conviction, as the unregenerate mind would question the fallibility of Scripture because of human writers. The words of Christ, who conquered death, assures us: " I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law [Scripture] until everything is accomplished."
Moreover, the conviction of authority and truth is found in the heart. When that individual queries the mind and heart…"why do I believe what God tells me about Christ and trust in it along with everything that is written in Scripture", the honest answer is never a product of "logic or theory". It is a result of God the Holy Spirit residing in that heart as a testimony of faith. It is also an assurance that eternal life with Him is something that can be relied upon…because He gifted that faith. We had nothing to do with it, as it would be impossible to do so.
Solascriptura reply: [[ I agree with that. We use our minds for reading but it is our hearts that do the "believing". Read any book you choose...all it can do is educate or entertain you. Not so with Scripture [God's Word] which can change the heart! There is a great chasm between the head and the heart. There is the "natural reading" of Scripture and there is the reading of Scripture with the Holy Spirit's influence of instruction of the ways of God...the mind of Christ. ]]
It is nice to see that I am not alone in these thoughts Philadiddle!
When I read large books on apologetics such as ones by William Lane Craig, he never starts with a natural reading of the english, he starts with the context and the original language.
I have noticed a trend among modern Bibles to include some of the original language (or at least I just started noticing ~10 years ago, the practice probably goes back further though). From Genesis, they might say:
"'And God said let there be light.' In Hebrew the word for 'light' is 'AAAA'. And while 'light' is the most common interpretation of 'AAAA', there are others, such as 'xxxx' and 'yyyy'. This shows us that when God spoke……"
This a step in the right direction, but it is still not as ideal as reading entirely in the original languages. So while I applaud these approaches to bring at least some of the original language to the casual reader, I still strongly recommend learning the original languages in their entirety! In a few years I hope to be able to read classic Greek literature and perhaps even the Greek parts of the Bible in their original language. Modern Greek is similar to ancient Greek, which is not so much the case with English from only 500 years ago!
I apologize for the delay I have been busy lately in due time I will respond to your post I will appreciate your patience.
No worries, and I see that you have already responded. Initially I was not sure if you would respond or not, that is why I asked you again
. Right now I am working on a response to your new post (just a warning: it's a long one!).
From Scripture we can learn multiple or layered meanings, however, the actual events of the Bible did literally occur. By those actual events literally occuring, the Bible is not just a mere storybook, but it is an acual text that can be applied to reality.
The apparent contradictions between the Bible and archaeological evidence led to the rise of the Copenhagen School of Biblical Minimalism in the 1960s. They view the Bible as literature describing the relationship between God and man, not as literal history. From Wikipedia: "[The Copenhagen School] arose in the late 1960s from the need to deal with the increasing contradictions between the findings of Syro-Palestinian archaeology and the Bible's version of history: For decades ... scholars interpreted archaeology in light of what the Bible said ... [taking] for granted that what the Bible said, was true—not just morally and religiously, but historically and scientifically. So, as an archaeologist back in the 19th century, you would pick up your Bible and expect to find Noah's Ark somewhere on top of Mount Ararat in Turkey, just as the Bible said; or that you could dig in Jerusalem and find the remains of David's and Solomon's palace."
If I were Christian, a nonliteral interpretation of the Bible is one that I would most likely adhere to. As I have said before in another thread, I see the Bible as an allegory describing our relationship with God, not a literal history.
In fact, only the Bible makes sense of reality because I am absolutely sure that it provides the only worldview that can account for the fact that we have knowledge. Also, when comparing other religious doctrines to the Bible, the other doctrines are contradictory, not consisitent, not self-attesting.
I look forward to continuing our discussion about this in the Preconditions of Intelligibility thread.
Actually as long as we do not agree on the same presuppositions, we will be talking past each other. I am glad that you acknowledge the existence of God, but do you acknowledge the existence of the true God? What is it that stops you from believing in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit? Please post a thread to ask questions as TTP said.
When I referred to a "theistic version" of my worldview, I meant a Christian theistic version. So for the sake of many of these arguments, I will assume that God exists and communicates to us through the Bible. How to make sense of and interpret the Bible is another step, and one in which I obviously disagree with you.
I intend to post some threads in the future, but I would like to see how some of these discussions play out - and hopefully end! - first (and I do not want to get too bogged down in writing responses!). In a nutshell, I could not rationally justify my belief in God or the Bible. I will elaborate on this in other existing threads and possibly new threads in the future.
Your worldview is inheretly irrational as an atheist thus the claims that stem from your worldview logically follows as irrational. If you have an unreliable worldview, your claims or bias are unreliable.
First, one can have incorrect assumptions and still make correct claims. For example, Newtonian mechanics makes fundamentally erroneous assumptions about the natural world, but it still makes correct predictions about some physical systems. Second, I do not claim to have absolute and complete philosophical belief system (I am still working on it), I just see flaws in the Christian beliefs which led me to reject them. And third, I have just pointed out several "holes" in your absolute interpretation of the Bible, which I think you have not reasonably "patched up" in your response (I will elaborate in my response to that particular post). So I can just as easily say the same thing about you and your worldview (but just calling each other irrational gets us nowhere).
Here is how though many of my ideas are consistent with a Christian worldview (again I refer you to Kierkegaard). When you say though many of your ideas are consistent with the Christian worldview you are borrowing from that worldview.
Just because many of my ideas are consistent with a Christian worldview does not mean that they are borrowed. You and theistic evolutionists have the similar ideas in your worldviews, but your worldviews are clearly different! Perhaps you think Nietzsche borrowed his ideas from Kierkegaard, but gave them an atheistic twist? Just because core ideas are similar does not mean that they have the same source or that one is borrowed from the other. There is usually more than one way to arrive at a certain conclusion (for example, in school I never "did math" the way the teachers taught it, but I still got the right answers).
Dr. Strangelove,
In the interests of defending Biblical accuracy, most evangelical Christians believe Noah's Ark will still be found on Mt. Ararat, as there are several theories about where it may be, and several sightings seeming to confirm something there. There is additional evidence that suggest it was there, even if it's not there now.
And I'm not absolutely sure about David's or Solomon's Temples for sure, but I believe archaeologists have confirmed finding parts of them in Jerusalem. They're not easy to find because they're underground, underneath other things which are there now which can't be moved to do full excavations. But, just like the Pool of Siloam, modern archaeology has done more to support Biblical claims than to undermine them. I'm not aware of a single direct contradiction that has been confirmed.
TTPAdmin1
In short, both of your requests are structured for gridlock. It is right to use reason as a servant of the text but the guidance of the Holy Spirit is essential for its proper understanding. The following is a compilation of the reasons why:
There is no amount of sophistry and deductive powers of word salad that are equal to the task of trumping the Holy Spirit.
A combination of the human mind and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit aids us to read absolute truth from Scripture. The key is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, He renews our mind.
Okay, so I guess you think Philadiddle and a couple of others in these forums do not have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or at least they do not listen to him? Or is there a fault in their human understanding of the Bible? Or perhaps both? Anyone can say that they listen to the Holy Spirit, so one must use other means to test what one claims the Holy Spirit says to them. Otherwise we can get into an endless "The Holy Spirit told me this - No, because the Holy Spirit told me something else!" type of argument.
I suppose you will say that what one claims the Holy Spirit says must be consistent with scripture, and that is how we can test whether it is truly the Holy Spirit speaking. Okay, we are getting a little further, but still quite far from an end point, because now I would ask "which interpretation of scripture?" Desicess, I am guessing that your rubric for this will be based on the four points you have outlined in other threads (such as here, where I reposted from another thread). You say "non-christian or compromised Christian belief borrows from the Biblical Christian worldview usually unintentionally because they cannot account for criterion 3. And because they borrow from the Biblical Christian worldview, they violate criterion 2." The point in criterion 3 (preconditions of intelligibility) is still an ongoing discussion, so let us see where that leads us.
The bottom line is that you cannot use the Holy Spirit as a "short cut" to understanding scripture, because human understanding is also important as you note, or in my opinion it is much more important. You must be able to rationally arrive at an understanding of scripture, otherwise anyone can claim that the Holy Spirit told them the opposite of what he told you.
Don't worry, Dr. Strangelove, this is actually a note to Sola Scriptura!
Sola Scriptura, I want to provide a clarification here. To claim that the Holy Spirit brings full understanding of scripture is a dangerous claim, because it means that there is only one isolated denomination that really does have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and every other Christian denomination is "compromised" and lacks the indwelling. I want to clarify that this is not Dr. Tackett's position, nor is it The Truth Project's. We accept that there may be an indwelling of the Holy Spirit without having full agreement with other denominations on the interpretation of specific scripture. The Holy Spirit helps us to understand God, but we know it does not produce full understanding because Paul and Peter continued to (temporarily) disagree about scriptural principles even after the Pentecost.
TTPAdmin1
But because you are an agnostic you clearly would have no clue what I am talking about.
But of course because you are an agnostic you once again have no clue what I am talking about.
I know exactly what you are talking about, I simply do not believe that the Holy Spirit, or God for that matter, exists. Just because I do not accept the premises of your arguments does not mean that I am not able to understand them or follow them to their logical conclusion.
I find it ironic how you claim that history is unreliable while at the same time accepting a quote from Napolean as actual history. How do you know Napolean really said that quote? According to your own standard you cannot even rely on knowing that Napolean actually said that quote. Also, according to your own standard that there is no absolute knowledge, you can never be absolutely sure Napolean even existed.
First, I did not say that our knowledge of history is unreliable, but that it incomplete, especially the further back you go. New findings have led us to revise historical "fact" before (including Biblical text!), and I see no reason to believe that this may not occur again in the future. Secondly, as for the quote, it is completely irrelevant whether Napolean said this or if he existed, or even if the quote has ever been said before! If you like, you can think that I just made up the quote for this post, because regardless of the source, the idea posed in the quote is still a valid one. I myself do not have such a skeptical view of history, but it should still remind us to use caution in calling historical events absolutely indisputable matters of fact, especially ones so far removed from us temporally!
So if I were to take a textbook that was written in spanish and translate it to english you believe that the translation would be unreliable because it is a hard task.
I do not say that this is so "because it is a hard task", but because of the very nature of language and translation! Quite plainly, there is no direct translation between languages! As the Italian proverb goes: "tradutorre, traditore!" (translator, traitor!) (did you notice that the pun is lost in translation?)
By your own standard you cannot communicate outside of your own language.
Of course you can communicate outside of your own language, you have misunderstood my point here. My point is that one cannot translate from one language to another for a non-speaker of the original language in a way that is absolutely true to the original language. When one studies another language, particularly at an advanced level, their studies are coupled with at least some history and culture lessons, because this helps give context to the language (for example, why are there many German and Arabic based words in Spanish? The answer is easy if you know the history of Spain). But even lessons are not enough, and to truly become fluent in another language one must live in that culture, and even then, after years living in a culture, cultural fluency is attained by very few people (this is because one is still lacking, for example, the "childhood context" of a culture, the historical tradition of the country, etc.). Of course one can no longer live in the cultures of ancient Israel, Greece or Rome, so now we are limited to an understanding of those cultures from textual and archaeological sources (that brings me back to our incomplete knowledge of history). So when one first learns a new language their initial communication is a sort of crude and grammatically correct communication (think of Google translator), but later it can develop into a culturally correct communication. This "culturally correct" communication or understanding of a language takes years to develop. You cannot put a footnote on every sentence of a translation explaining the cultural and historical context of the words, that would take a space larger than the Bible itself! (I suppose you could do this, and perhaps it has been done, but I doubt such a version of the Bible would be widely read outside of academic circles)
So one can certainly learn to communicate outside of their own language. In fact, I find Spanish a more natural and expressive language for myself than my native English, even though I am not completely culturally fluent in Spanish culture. I am guessing that you do not speak any other languages fluently? I think that translation is often under-appreciated by monolingual people because they do not understand these issues, which are quite obvious to multilingual people.
All of that being said, I want to say that language is an incredibly rich thing. I highly recommend learning at least one other language, because you learn not only more about your native language in the process, but you also gain a new tongue with which you can express yourself in ways that are impossible in your mother tongue! Because of your clear interest in the context of the Bible, I would recommend you learn Latin, Greek or Hebrew (or all three!).
When you read the Bible translations they all convey the same message and the same meaning and they have been consistent for thousands of years.
The Bible has only been definitively translated into other languages relatively recently (hundreds of years ago, excluding of course Greek and Latin). Regardless, I would agree that the core message of the Bible has been consistent throughout time (Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins). But of course, where we are now having disputes is in interpretation of the peripheral (non-core) parts and nitty-gritty details of the Bible: is Genesis literal, etc. (when I say "non-core" I do not mean that they are unimportant, just that it does not form the basis of belief for all Christian denominations like Jesus dying for sins does).
God is alive and His Spirit dwells in true believers so the original intention of the author, God, is easily understood by those who yield to Him.
Again, who is listening to the true Holy Spirit? You, or some of the Christians in this forum that believe in evolution, non-literal Genesis, etc.?
Also, Oliver Twist is fiction based on literal history. The Bible is non-fiction based on literal history. You have compared apples with oranges. They are not the same.
This is not comparing apples and oranges, but let me rephrase my analogy and then offer a new one: You are interpreting the Bible within the context of the Bible and relatively few outside sources (textual and historical). In this example you are interpreting Oliver Twist within the context of Oliver Twist, also with relatively few outside sources (in my example I listed external textual sources, but I could just as easily list external historical sources, the analogy is still the same). As for Oliver Twist being fiction, how do you know this given the limitations I impose in my example? I do not recall anything extraordinary or unbelievable in the story, and it was narrated quite literally as the story of a young boy named Oliver, and you have archaeological evidence of this city called "London" during the time of Oliver Twist, so why do you call it fiction?
So let me offer a new analogy, because you seem to be attacking my specific example (Oliver Twist) in your response, and not the idea expressed in it. This time I will forgo a fictional book and use a literal history book. Now you have Anabasis by Xenophon (an account of Greek mercenaries in Persia). Just like before, you have a dictionary of the Greek language and a few other books from the era with which to aid your interpretation. And as a bonus, this time I will give you some archaeological evidence to help you make more sense of Xenophon's account. Same questions as before: do you expect know the exact intention of Xenophon's writing? Do you expect to understand all parts of his book and understand when symbolism or allegory is used?
The 66 Books from Genesis to Revelation are canon. Here is an article about this:
I am referring to how these 66 books became canon. They didn't drop out of the sky in one complete tome, they were all written by separate authors and brought together into a single binding decades or centuries after they were written. I read most the link to AiG you put up, but I got tired about 2/3 through because I already saw several problems with the argument. I will not go into depth here, but I just wanted to point out one thing about the New Testament canon. It says that the apostles "have authority to write or oversee the newly written Scripture of the New Testament". Okay, fine, but why are several things written by those apostles either not accepted as canon or missing entirely? Some examples: the Gospel of Bartholomew, some epistles of Paul, and other Gospels of Matthew are either not canonical or missing (some missing or non-canonical texts have disputed authorship, but some are undoubtedly written by the apostles).
but just because there are those Christains does not mean that all Christians are the same. That is the logical fallacy of hasty generalization. Also, I do not see how that connects to the reliability of Scripture.
I am not saying that all Christians are the same and have not read the Bible, I am saying that most people (and many Christians) have not read the Bible, at least not extensively. If you protest to my saying "many Christians", then I will downgrade it to "some Christians", it is not incredibly important. As for connecting this to the reliability of scripture, it really has nothing to do with it, but I thought it was important to note when talking about how essential the Bible is to the Christian worldview, because clearly some Christians did not or do not have an in-depth, first-hand knowledge of the Bible (so while core beliefs may be widely understood and accepted, peripheral beliefs are not).
I do not segment the book of Genesis to say chapter 1-2 is literal and 3-5 is allegorical you have misunderstood. My claim is that the entire Book of Genesis is a literal historical narrative granted there are some figurative language within, just like any piece of literature.
You are right, I am not certain how you determine what is figurative and what is not. I wrote this under the assumption that the "figurative language" you identify in Genesis falls neatly within chapter or verse divisions. And again, this is not an argument against your interpretation of the Bible, but I thought it was important to note, especially given my assumption.
Your human mind is unrelaible thus, you can never have absolute knowledge of anything. You cannot even have absolute knowledge that you are reading this post or that you are thinking about some reply.
Are you absolutely sure that you are reading this post or thinking about responding?
How can you be sure if by your own standard, you cannot rely on your unreliable human mind?
These questions are irrelevant to my argument against a natural reading of scripture as an absolute means of interpretation. I am not putting forth a new means of interpreting scripture, I am just pointing to what I see are flaws in yours. But nonetheless, I address these questions in the Preconditions of Intelligibility thread.
You are angry with God aren't you?
Or is it that you want to be God?
Of course not. I do not believe God exists, so it would be quite silly to be angry with something that I do not believe exists, no? What I am angry at is what people have made and done in the name of God ("what people do in the name of God" is not my reason for disbelief, just so that is clear). As for wanting to be God, you have to be more specific and define "God", but if you mean "do I want to be like the Christian/Biblical God?", then the answer is no.
Lets discuss morality here:
Are you a good person Dr. Strangelove?
How do you define "good"? I am going to guess and say that being sinless is good, and that even just one sin makes you a bad person (i.e. you are going to hell unless you get help from a certain someone). So if that is your standard, then no, I am not a good person, and in fact I am a bad person on multiple accounts.
But let me cut to what I think is the underlying "question" of your question: you want me to define morality and justify that definition in a naturalistic worldview, yes? Let me know if this is the "question" of your question, and I will respond to it later, because for now, I think this post is long enough!
Before I begin, let me say that I appreciate the sincerity of your post, it really shows. I can tell that you very strongly believe what you said, and your post related that very respectfully.
Your persistence with this topic suggests that you are trying to reach God through human intellect and insight. That is certainly better than indifference as the search has not ended.
I think it is essential to reach God through human intellect, as I detail in my response to Desicess (I also included some of your post in my reply). Basically, how do you determine if one is truly listening to the Holy Spirit, and not someone or something else?
I know you will never reply to me because I see these debates as God sees them:
"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly." 2 Timothy 2:16
This is one of the things I was uncomfortable with when I was a Christian, and that I have now grown to be very critical of. I understand a desire to avoid "ungodly actions", but to avoid discussion? To accept unconditionally and never to question some of your beliefs or even the most basic premises of your beliefs? Of course we all have certain beliefs that may never change in our lives, but to avoid discussion about them or to hear contrasting ideas I find a dangerous state of mind.
One of my least favorite things to discuss is "religion". My favorite thing to discuss is Jesus. Does this seem like a contradiction to you?… … …I do not believe these kind of religion/intellect conversations lead to anything of value. I try not to get ensnared by them and attempt to steer these discussions around to talking about my Savior and His great love for mankind.
I know many Christians today - myself included when I was a Christian - do not like the word "religion" to describe their beliefs, and say that what is truly important is a relationship with Jesus, not empty, formal "religion". Despite the appeal that this has, I think it is merely wordplay. Religion is defined as:
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods : ideas about the relationship between science and religion.
• details of belief as taught or discussed : when the school first opened they taught only religion, Italian, and mathematics.
• a particular system of faith and worship : the world's great religions.
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance : consumerism is the new religion.
I know the definition of religion is disputable, but I think that ultimately all religions are about a belief in and a relationship with a god or gods (keep in mind the definition of 'god' and the kind of relationship varies between religions). Some gods punish their creation to perfect them (this is a kind of relationship), others want a loving relationship with them (Christianity), etc., but they are all ultimately a religion: a belief in a god or gods and the nature of our relationship with them.