You should have seen the looks we got two nights ago when my two year old son was throwing a fit at the restaruant. We don't go out very often right now for that very reason. I am not offended by others not wanting to be around my screaming child. I can't imagine that all restaurants (or theaters, etc.) will follow this. If it would help keep young children out of PG-13 and R rated movies, I'm all for it even.
If someone already doesn't "like" children, seeing a screaming child at a restaurant is only bound to support their reasons for dislike rather than make them fall in love with the child.
I think we need to get to the root of the problem -- how many parents today actually take the time and effort to properly train their children on how to behave in public? Children are not born with these skills inherently.
When our children were small, we had a lot of cheap meals at Friendly's where they learned how to remain seated, lower their voices, eat politely, etc. When they failed, it didn't bother anyone because it wasn't a five star restaurant.
Now, we can take our 7, 6, and 3 year old anywhere. They know what is expected of them, and enjoy the treat of a nice dinner out. We took our two oldest (girls) out for "high tea" at a fancy hotel at Christmastime to reward them for all they have learned about table manners.
Too many parents leave the parenting to the rest of the world (the schools, etc.) or just expect their kids to know how to behave.
I think as a society we have to meet in the middle -- more tolerance of the little ones being out, but more effort by their parents to "train them up in the way they should go."
Granted children are a blessing, but the parents that allow them to run rampant through a restaurant or store should be the ones banned. Several times I have been almost mowed down by children running. When I pulled this stunt my mother would first give me the look. That said you are about 45 seconds away from a spanking, young lady. WEll if I decided to cross the next line, that was when I had to pick my switch and well you know the rest. But the worst part is the parents that allow them to run about and step on people's feet. I still carry some scars from being stomped hard on my feet resulting in breaking my toes. I've usually not said anything, but when I do, the mothers are incensed that I would dare to tell their sweet hellion to slow down and not run. Today my feet, tomorrow a five to ten for holding up the local convience store. Discpline had to start somewhere.
Dear Mr. Daly,
You might want to look into the "child-free" shopping hours for Whole Foods in Missouri a little deeper. It's actually a service FOR parents to shop for up to 2 hours while their children are being taken care by workers at the store. It's a benefit to families and should be cited as such.
Sincerely,
Monique T.
I think that the reason public places can't make a distinction between well-behaved children and those who wreak havoc is that parents who choose not to discipline their holy terrors are often those with the sense of entitlement mentioned earlier - that everyone else needs to tolerate their child's screaming - and they may be likely to raise a hue and cry or sue because their screaming child is asked to leave the restaurant while a quiet child is allowed to stay. How does a restaurant prove that one child's behavior met the criteria to get them kicked out, when they're in court months later? It is far easier to simply ban children under a certain age.
I don't mind having certain places that are adult only - I think that those restaurants and movie theaters are responding to consumer demand. But I also agree that we need to be able to take our children out in public or they'll never learn how to act in public. (My boys are 5 and 8, and they've been in many varied public situations with us over the years, and when they've caused disruption, they've learned that removal from the situation is one of the consequences. Not fun for parents, but definitely better for discipline and for the innocent bystanders.)
It is not the children who need banned, but the parents who cannot control the behavior of their children, or don't want to.
I am a parent of 3 and a grandparent of 1, and I have mixed feelings about this rule. On the one hand I love to go out and eat with our extended family, but I hate to eat at a resturant were there are kids screaming and crying and the parents are just sitting there talking to others at the table and totally ignoring their screaming child. When my kids were young if they got tired of sitting there and started to get vocal, and my wife wanted to talk with her sisters for a while longer then it was time for Dad to take the kids outside so the others in the resturant could enjoy their meals.
So I feel in many cases the parents are not spending the time to teach their kids to use their indoor voice, and sometimes one or both of the parents need to eat their maels quickly and take the kid outside.
Oh, this saddens me! Are these comments really saying people prefer the absense of children, or are they actually saying we need to have parents do a better job of training their children so they are a blessing to others when out in public and not a curse? Banning children from certain venues is not the answer. Helping parents lovingly train their children (and perhaps know when not to bring children with them of their own choice (not because it's "not allowed")) is the better solution, I believe.
I have 4 daughters ages 10, 8, 6 & 3.5. I try to remember to remind them when we go out in public that their job for that foray is to "be a blessing" to those in our path. Somedays they do better than others. But I have to say, I'm in agreement with Jim - when I see children acting unruly, etc. I have compassion on the parents. And when I'm out and about w/o my girls (which is rare), I enjoy seeing other children, as they remind me of my own precious blessings (whether the child(ren) is acting as a blessing at the moment or not).
I do truly believe that children are a gift from God!
I also know that parenting is not happening in our culture. We should not be afraid of our children, and we definitely should not allow our children to dictate our family-life nor our household. Parents are simply not parenting, and I think that THAT is the unfortunate trend in our society.
My wife and I have two awesome boys, 3.5 and 5 years old. When they were younger, they would occasionally have public crying or some other kind of disruption (or eruption), and I always believed it was my responsibility to remove them from the theater or other public performance so as not to disturb all the other customers.
I have been to many public performances, restaurants, etc, where there are crying babies, or worse -- out-of-control kids and the parents do little or NOTHING. I believe this is the real problem -- that too few parents discipline their kids, or believe their "right" to see a performance outweighs the fact that their kids are disturbing all the other patrons.
I think that anyone who wants to have a "childfree night" deserves one. I've been out at a restaurant on more than one occassion to eat a nice meal with a group of "childfree" friends and had the night ruined by screaming kids. One of them one time was throwing icecubes at our table across the aisle. This was not a kid friendly restaurant (no kids menu, highchairs, etc) and that was why we chose to go there as a group. Lately we've resorted to meeting at each other's houses and those with kids get a sitter for the evening. It's the only way we can get the quiet we're after.
Grocery shopping without kids running back and forth in front of the cart and handling all the produce would be nice too...
As far as movies being kid free, I hope it happens. There is a lot of stuff in movies that I don't think kids should see, and nothing makes me cringe more than going to a 14A or over movie and seeing little kids in the theatre with Mom or Dad because they didn't want to get a sitter.
We are the parents of 4 young adult children, we always took our children everywhere we went, that is how they learn to behave properly in different types of places. I realize that children's behavior CAN be unpredictable but it is the parents responsibility to administer correction/discipline if the behavior is unacceptable ( that might include taking an unruly child outside or to the restroom to deal with them). Yes, parents you need to start acting like you are the parent and not the child.
I work in an area store and I am appalled at the behavior of most of the children and I do not really blame the kids I blame the parents, they are "doing their own thing" and not paying attention to their kids and letting them do whatever they want to.
We owned and operated a bed & breakfast for 12 yrs (most b&b's do not accept children) and when asked if we accepted children our reply was always "We take kids with well-behaved parents!" We never had a problem and never had a complaint from any of our guests.
My husband and I have three children, 23, 18 and 16. We are against restaurants going childless. We have always taken our children out to restaurants to eat even dining with white table clothes with toddlers. We feel it is very important at a young age to teach your child how to have manners in various situations including behaving appropriately in restaurants.
We are of the mind set that it is very much a way to honor God to teach our children to be able to adapt to various situations. We do not believe kids should only be taken to McDonalds to eat. We raised our children with praise and when needed time outs. It was easy for us since we started at a young age.
We have seen a trend today with parents allowing children to run wild in various places. And we are afraid this is what lead to the intolerance of children in some restaurants. A few bad apples can ruin it for the rest of us. I was shocked to watch a mom and dad allow their kids to run through a restaurant a few months ago and they laughed. They ran and disturbed others. I so much wanted to say something but could not come up with the words without coming across judgemental.
We believe in talking a lot to our kids and explaining why they act a certain way. But Dr Dobson's books from the start with our son who is now 23 helped a lot raising these children.
Lets all walk the walk with our children and be good examples to others. Not perfect, but make a good effort daily. This way others will see children as allowable in restaurants even if they might have an occassional problem.
There's a big difference between little ones who are having a terrible twos (or threes) tantrum and children who are allowed to run amuck and be disruptive. Some parents anymore seem to let their kids run around in restaurants, stores or even the theater. These kids aren't just having a meltdown like any kid will. They are simply allowed to run wild. I've seen waitstaff in restaurants trying to dodge little ones that were allowed to crawl around on the floor (not even remotely close to the parent's table either), watched children at restaurant buffets sticking their hands into the food (no responsible adult was nearby for oversight) and have seen unattended children throwing things from store shelves onto the floor.
I know you've seen it, too.
I believe that it is these types of cases that have spawned "child free" restaurants and the like. I don't think it's a general societal bias against children.
People we need to get involved with our children again!
Join with ParentalRights.org.
Be allowed to raise our children with morals and respect.
Homeschool them if we can.
Be someone that they look up to and want to copy.
Show them how God belongs in EVERY area of their lives as
He does in our lives. Not just Sunday mornings.
Yes we are heading for more divison in the family, but only if
we allow it. Boycott things that divide families.
If we don't do what God calls us to do training up our children
then we only have ourselves to blame.
Yes if your child starts to even make a fuss when you're out you
should remove yourself and the child.
Talk with the child and if they do not improve then you might find
the need to leave completely.
Maybe they will have to loose out on some other fun time event to
learn the lesson. Is it a pain...yes but the child will learn that bad
behavour will not be tolerated.
What kind of an example are we setting for the young adults and
generations to come?
Reminds me of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang...
Yes we do have 2 boys and they love going out with us. Especially
when people comment on how good they are acting. No they are
not perfect and yes we have had to remove ourselves a few times.
They've learned and try their best. They desire to please and see
others happy with them. Sometimes we've removed ourselves
because of other people's children and explained how we didn't want
them to learn that the way the other children were acting was normal.
As much a I love kids [and most of all my grandkids!], it is often difficult to enjoy a night out when there are noisy, misbehaved children in the vicinity...whatever the venue. Unfortunately nowadays, many parents are either unconcerned or inept regarding parenting and caring/disciplining their children and often tend to 'let them run free'. Since it is impractical to expect management of any business to selectively 'exclude' or deny service to a family on an individual basis [especially in today's world], it seems to me a great idea to have some establishments that are for 'adults only'....with relative peace and quiet being the objective. There will always be adequate demand by and a large market in the 'family set'...I don't think that is a concern. Recently my wife and I vacationed at a resort in AZ and were delighted to learn that it had an 'adults only' pool in additon to the [much larger] 'open' pool. The quiet enjoyment and peacefulness at the adult pool were wonderful! Having the option of chosing a "no kids" event or venue would be welcome...while still having plenty of McDonalds and waterparks to enjoy with my grandkids. :-)
This from a very conservative, old-school guy.
I think it's a good thing concerning any places that serve alcohol at all.
While this may not be a popular opinion, I am of the generation where parents got babysitters for us concerning supper club outings, which were childfree events for them and quite a healthy thing.
Baby boomers are the largest segment of our society and they're getting older. They have a lot of clout and they will impact our society in huge ways for the next few decades. The U.S. would be a different place if some 50 million more children were born post 1973. We are reaping what we have sown.
This is symptomatic of the trends in our society, which need to be reversed to get back to following Biblical wisdom and commands in all aspects of our lives. Fast forward this trend and you get France who's general population is highly medicated for depression as a result of how they treat / "parent" their children. The restaurants should ban the parents until they learn to parent.
My first reaction is, Isn't this a violation of public-accomodation laws? You can't ban African-Americans from being served, so presumably, you can't ban children either. The case of Whole Foods is not so clear, because the children would not be doing the shopping.
But then, I thought, if policies like this are allowed to stand, they actually strengthen the case that, e.g., Christian wedding photographers, make when they decline to photograph same-sex commitment ceremonies. Gay-rights pressure groups say this is a violation of public-accommodation laws. It's not, because they're not saying they won't do business with gays; they're just saying their business does not include that kind of ceremony. If restaurants can ban children and this is ruled to be legal, then Christian businesses will be able to cite this as a precedent in managing their business as they see fit.
As long as there are still restaurants and food stores that accept children, it wouldn't bother me. Few families with children can afford to shop at Whole Paycheck anyway.
I also believe that Children are a blessing from God and know there are times when it's unavoidable to have children out at certain times. My problem comes with those parents who have the kids out way past bedtime or nap time. They children can't be blammed for not behaving - for crying almost hysterically. They need to be home, in bed; having already been fed - feeling secure. We had 4 children and raised 3 grandchildren for 11 yrs. During those years we knew we had to sacrifice going out to fancy restaurants unless we could afford a babysitter. Now when we do enjoy a evening out, I am occasionally assaulted by children who are either screaming so loud that we can't enjoy a conversation, kicking the bench so loud that it nearly drives us nuts, or they actually get food in my hair.
Do I agree with restaurants setting a policy to limit children of a certain age from coming in; unfortunately, yes. As long as parents refuse to use self control and administer good parenting skills then it is left to the owners of businesses to make their establishment one that people are willing to patronize.
So it appears that there are some things money can't buy you. No matter how rich you are, if you want to take your young children along -- you can't shop during certain hours at some grocery stores, you can't fly first class, or eat in some restaurants.
'Family' seems to continue its journey of becoming a dirty word in our society. Time to boycott perhaps? Not sure. Of course, those with real money can hire a Mary Poppins while they go out to shop for 'whole foods' (non-capital spelling mine) or eat fancy. And yes, what's an extra ticket in economy for the nanny to sit with the kids?
And by the way, not only are we allowing others to come and take over our land -- we're fighting the North American family to the point where we are encouraging more and more childless families with trends such as these. We must all have an innate wish to become "minorities". We're so good at pursuing it. But ultimately we'll fail for the simple reason that God ordained the family and our Lord and Savior loves "little" children. Which part are some people not understanding?
I'm a homeschool mother of five (ages 5-14) and love children. We take them with us when we shop, go to movies, go out to eat etc. I'm very proud of their behaviors in public and feel very blessed when other people notice and complement them on being well behaved. Children need to be taken out and taught what behavior is appropriate for what settings. Every child has a melt down, but that's when it's time to take them out of the setting and let them know that behavior is not appropriate for inside and not let them go back inside until they are calm. Being a mother of five, I've sacrificed many warm meals or parts of movies to do this, but now I'm reaping the benefits. I believe the problem isn't lack of tolerance I believe it's lack of discipline on the parents part so now the pulblic is expected to tolerate more. One of the number one things teachers complain about is the lack of respect children have. When is the last time you had a young man hold the door open for you? How about the simple please, thank you and excuse me? Children getting banned from resturants is a parent problem not a child problem and it's so sad to see the children not getting the training they need.
I too have mixed feelings on this issue. I think it is fine to have childless restaurants, as many people have already responded, that are parents themselves, appreciate a quiet date night without other children around too. But I also see a trend in our culture of intolerance to children, which is truly awful because they are such a blessing. I so appreciate the story about the goldrush days...imagining such a scenario really warmed my heart!!! Wouldn't that be grand to experience today on such a scale!!!
But we live in a different culture now, and in many ways that is unfortunate. The family unit is not as strong as it use to be.
Anyhow...stick with me thru this please...as for the 'loudness and bad behavior' that kids can sometimes have in public places...honestly, I think alot of that comes right back to parenting. Please don't get me wrong...I KNOW that kids are not perfect, and that just because a kid throws a fit, by no means does that show that the parenting is insufficient. I am simply saying, that in many cases, especially perpetual issues with the problem, if the parent isn't addressing the issue in public, then it isn't being addressed in private either...and that simply IS bad parenting. We have all seen those scenarios in public I am sure. And just as bad are the parents screaming back at the child. Again, I am not talking about the parents that are actively and appropriately discplining their childrens misbehavior in public.
But the whole issue of misbehaving children in public, I think as become more of an issue in recent years...simply by the shear volume of children that misbehave. There is alot of disrespect for parents. My opinion is that is the outcome of the breakdown of the family unit over generations. There are more and more parents now that lacked parental discipline and unconditional love when they were growing up...they do not have an example of good parenting. I guess that is one of the reasons why I love Focus on the Family...what an awesome ministry!!
As for me, when I am out in public enjoying a quiet time and I hear and see a screaming child...I will try to remember to focus on praying for the parent(s)...to set aside any of my annoyance, and simply pray for them. That they may be enlightened in the areas they need as they raise adults to fear the Lord.
And when I want to ensure a quiet date night with my sweet hubby....then I can always aim to go somewhere children are less likely to be....isn't that what we do anyway?
I agree with DeWayne about church tolerance for kids. One thing that I have noticed are that folks in the church are less tolerant of having kids in service. They often make excuses like, "my kid learns better when the lesson is geared toward his age," which I agree with--and that's why there's Sunday school. But there's been a trend where kids must be "babysat" during both services to give the parents a break--which is another form of entitlement. In my opinion, I think kids should be welcomed in the sanctuary for the church service once they hit the elementary years, so they learn how to behave and see what church is about by witnessing their parents and others around them worshipping God and learning about His Word.
I, too, was fooled by the Missouri Whole Foods story, which (I believe) was originally reported in a misleading fashion by Yahoo. My husband actually called the St. Louis store to ask about it, since we were planning on making the trip to St. Louis (with our children) in part to shop at Whole Foods, and we wanted to make sure we didn't get there at the wrong time. We were told that the "child-free hours" were actually times when childcare would be available to parents while they shop, that parents were not required to place their children in the childcare area while shopping, and that the St. Louis Whole Foods doesn't have that program anyway. So, someone at Yahoo sensationalized that story quite a bit.
It doesn't bother me if a few restaurants and other businesses ban children. That's the free market at work, and as long as there are still plenty of options for families with small children, I'm not offended by it. My guess is that unless they're five-star restaurants that don't see many children anyway, they'll lose more business than they gain. However, I did want to say that as a parent of four children, when I go on a date night, I honestly don't care if other people's children are being noisy, because they're not my children and not my responsibility! I feel compassionate toward the poor parents, and I bask in the knowledge that I do not have to quiet down the offending children, decide whether or not to take them out of the restaurant, etc. I can tune it out because it's not my problem. I realize not everyone feels that way, but I did just want to add my two cents that not every parent feels she's wasted money on a babysitter just because someone else's children are being loud at the restaurant. (Now if they were stepping on my toes, that would be a different matter entirely...) And I do see less tolerance of the presence of children - even well-behaved children - in our culture, unfortunately.
I think people with multiple children really appreciate a restaurant without children more than us who only had one or two. Might be better if the restaurant had one or two nights a week advertised as a childless night so as not to offend those who would like to have their children with them. That way, they could "have their cake and eat it too!"
I wrote an opinion on my blog about this issue when I read the details in a Yahoo Shine article. This is discrimination, pure and simple, and on the face of it may seem like 'common sense' to provide for those who choose not to deal with screaming kids. The problem is, the rules exclude all kids AND THE PARENTS at the same time. This is no different than someone being excluded from 'public accomodation' based on race or sex. This is age discrimination at its core and is unlawful.
Where Oh Where is the ACLU?
It is my opinion that a business owner should have more rights than they do now. If they want to cater to read-heads only they should have that option. There are a few places around here that are adult only, but they serve lots of alcohol and don't want the kids to see it, I guess. So I don't go there. I think that's what lets them allow smoking, so another reason I don't go there.
People need a variety of places to go and I support the freedom to make those choices, living in a free country. There is already way too much gov't control over our lives.
And no, I don't see it as anything against the children. What I do see as a problem is when a restaurant has only chicken nuggets and hot dogs (or less) offered as kid's meals. I see that as a bias when I'm in a Mexican food place and they offer nothing else. On the other side Chick-fil-A professes a Christian stance closing Sundays and all, brags about some award for their kid's meals and yet they offer nothing but chicken nuggets. How about something good for them if they really care about children. So I'm forced to find someplace else to take the kids.
I think part of the problem today is that many people think it is ok, and even fun, to take their children EVERYWHERE and like Erin says, they are allowed to run wild. If I go to the Spaghetti Factory I expect it to be noisy and loud. If I go to the movies (not a kid one or cartoon), I expect to be able to enjoy the movie without a million distractions. People do not discipline their kids and they run amuck, even in the church sanctuary. If people would keep kids in kid situations and discipline them/set boundaries, these rules wouldn't need to be made. I don't want to listen to Jr scream and watch him throw his potatoes while I am trying to enjoy a candlelight dinner with my husband. That is not a kid appropriate situation and kids should not be expected to do well, they should expect that mom and dad will leave them at home to play and color with a babysitter.
My 21 year old son has wanted a large family for many years. He did some work with childrens groups this summer, running camps and VBS's. After 2 months he decided he didn't want ANY kids if that is how kids behave. He since has realized that not all kids behave that way, and has been able to use it as a learning experience for his future. He again wants a large family if he and his wife (whoever she may be ;D) are able to work together to discipline and set boundaries.
I am in favor of this idea and think establishments should retain the right to manage their businesses in a way that they feel will be the most appealing to their customers. If they want to enforce a dress code, I'm all for it. If they want to ban smoking, I'm all for it. If they want to play live music, I'm all for it. If they want to prohibit under-age patrons from sitting in the bar area, I'm all for it. Personally, I think it's ridiculous for so many people to think that if it inconveniences THEM (i.e. they have to find a babysitter), then something must be done about it. There are PLENTY of child-friendly establishments where kids are made to feel welcomed so these are the places parents should visit if they can't or won't leave their children at home.
I think the young child ban from restaurants and theaters is merely a manifestation of the continued growth of secular humanism. For humanists, "Self" is the center and all other considerations must be ground down or even obliterated if there is a chance they might encroach upon the self-satisfying unreality they prefer to pursue. This is not an entirely new sentiment. It's just now climbing high enough up on our culture's 'behavior curve' that it is getting noticed. Some 20 years ago my family was treated to an honest eruption of humanistic "self-defense" at a restaurant. We had just been seated by the host/hostess and this middle-aged vangard of modern humanism exclaimed, "Oh great! Now we're going to have to put up with some screaming kids!" We were mom, dad, 7-year old, 2-year old and grandma (who was middled-aged at the time). Grandma, bless her heart, retorted back, "These kids will behave far better than you are!" I was still stunned over the whole episode, but that seemed to shut them up. And grandma was right. Considering the issue of theaters restricting young children from movie screenings, I'm not at all certain that there are any offerings at the movie theaters that are entirely suitable for young children anyway. So that might turn out to be a good thing (for the wrong reason).
I am waiting for a comment on a waitress/staff who has had to clean up after a toddler.
Sure "it's their job" but it can also be a time-consuming distraction (lost tips) from other customers. At a Chinese buffet, a server once told us we could share with our toddler without paying extra for him if he didn't make a mess.
I don't like what is going on, but I don't want to encourage any laws/regulations to prevent this. In America it has been until recently (1960"s) a business's right to serve whom they wish. Than regulations started happening. What happened to if you don't like them you don't support them. That does more good I think, than regulating them. There are too many regulations now of common sense because someone didn't like what someone else was doing. I think word needs to be spread and those who don't like it don't support it.
It's funny that I should receive this email today! I just vented last night about going to a restaurant and having a horrible dinner because of unruly kids throughout the restaurant. First, let me say that I love children. I raised three - all two years apart in age. I have taught school for years. I suppose it's the oblivious parents that irritate me so much. Our dining experience last night consisted of kids screaming, crying, yanking the blinds from the windows, and parents who were totally and completely oblivious! It's as if they entered the restaurant and forgot they had children. It was horrible! Unfortunately, this is becoming the NORM. I understand that children will have meltdowns at the best we can do. But when it happens, take them to the car, to the restroom, somewhere where the rest of the patrons don't have to hear/see it and deal with it! I think it's very rude to subject those who want to dine out in peace to such chaos. When mine were on the playground they acted like maniacs, but when we went out to eat, they did not. Training children to behave is not EASY, but it is POSSIBLE. I applaud the restaurant owner for listening to the desires of his patrons, and I would certainly give him my business.
Being the parent of two very rambuntious boys, ages 4 and 6, one of them being on the autism spectrum and the other just 100% boy, I actually find it preferrable to me to not go to "sit down" resturants where they will be the children that they are. They do not behave badly. They are just extremely active boys. What I do have a problem with is the resturants that have a desgnated seating/play area for children and there are adults there who are intolerant of children behaving like children.
Children are a gift from God . Anyone who wants to enter the kingdom must come to Jesus like a little child. Besides children, mine especially,are pretty funny kids.
God Bless
I believe there are some restaurants where children shouldn't go if they don't behave. Years ago when our first child was 1 1/2 years we wanted to go to a fine restaurant where usually people celebrate big things and we wanted to celebrate my husband's new job. We knew this wasn't a real kid-friendly place, but our first child was very good usually when we went out, so we called the restaurant and explained our situation. They said it was fine to bring her. They even accommodated her with special foods. It was a multi-course dinner, so it took two hours to eat. We would take turns sometimes to take her outside for a quick walk. When we were done, many patrons came up to us and said how worried they were when we first came in because they didn't want a screaming kid to spoil their celebration. But commented on how good she did. Now, I never would have thought of taking my 2nd and 3rd children to a restaurant like that because they were the opposite.
As far as a movie or performance, young children should not go unless they are able to sit quietly and enjoy the show with you. when I have gone to the theater to see a ballet, I have been very upset when people bring kids under 4 years old that can't sit still and the seats cost over $25 each. It's not fair to others.
As for select shopping hours, that's just ridiculous. You can't always plan for specific hours. If there's a problem and your kid is throwing a fit, by all means take them home and try again later. It's so unnerving to see whole large families out shopping together taking up the whole aisle and kids grabbing things and eating them. Leave a parent at home watching the kids so the other parent can peacefully shop and choose wisely. It actually may save you money in the long run without all the kids grabbing for stuff they want, but don't need.
Well, I'm going to disagree with the other commenters. I think it's a sad statement on our values when we ban children from othewise perfectly appropriate activities like grocery shopping or eating just because they are children and may act like children. Believe me--there are times when I'd like to throw a fit, but I don't because I'm an adult and I've learned to control my behavior. Children are still learning how to do this. And there may be extenuating circumstances you don't know about. I am a military wife of a special needs child. There were times when I may have liked to go to the grocery store without risking a screaming child--but that would have meant not having food for my family. And honestly, the worst part about it wasn't the screaming child (I knew why she was crying and I had compassion toward her)--it was the looks and comments I got from the other adults who didn't even bother to understand.
Excluding children to protect them from being exposed to inappropriate content is good. (I get so frusterated when I see parents walking into a rated R movie with their children.) Wanting a date night with your spouse to keep your marriage vibrant is just fine. If you don't want to be around children--look for a place that is not appropriate for them. And remember--if a child is screaming his/her head off in a movie or at a restaurant and the parent is doing nothing about it (either comforting them or disciplining them)--that's a parent issue, not a child issue.
Here's this same concept but with a twist--I don't enjoy swearing. Can I go to Whole Foods during no-foul-language hours? Or how about going to the mall during no-scantily-clad-teenager hours? Can I go to the store during no-one-smoking-right-outside-the-front-door hours? Of course not! Instead I have to deal with these things I'd rather not be around, and I have to use them as a teaching opportunity with my children and an exercise in compassion for myself (maybe the teenage girl who is dressed like a prostitute, smoking, and swearing like a sailor has terrible role models and has never experienced the love of Christ) . So here's an idea...when we see a child behaving like a child we should view it as an opportunity to exercise compassion. Or here's a bigger idea--maybe you should try being the hands and feet of Christ and say, "Can I buy you a cup of coffee and let you sit down for a while and comfort your child while I gather the things on your grocery list for you?"
I think our society is becoming less tolerant, but in many ways they have themselves to thank for this. I must admit, as my children are a little older, I have found myself less tolerant of children crying and throwing tantrums. Yes, I remember on more than one occassion carrying or dragging a screaming child to remove him/her from the situation. That is just it though, I was actually concerned and tried to remove my child. It seems many parents today are content with letting their child misbehave. Society, for many years said spanking was "wrong," this has left many parents confused as to how to handle some discipline problems. Parents were afraid to discipline in public for fear of retaliation. I recently watched a young mother of an 18 mos-2 year old try to discretely chase her child around the sanctuary of our church during the service. The mother was absolutely powerless. It was rather frightening situation to observe, when you realize this is only the begining. If the trend of disruptive children continues, I must admit I might actually be attending one of those movies.
Thanks for all that you do @ Focus on the Family
Yes, children are a blessing. However, that is not the point here. The point is that we live in a free society and a private business owner should have the right to choose who he/she would like to serve. An individual that does not agree or approve of a business owner's choice in this regard then has the right to choose whether or not he/she would like to go to the privately-owned establishment. If the business suffers due to the choices the owner makes then the business will either go out of business or the business owner will change his/her business practices. Neither the government nor we as individuals should have the right to tell private business owners how they should run their businesses.
Mr. Daly,
I am in favor of these types of things, but not because of the children themselves. Rather, it is the lack of responsibility on behalf of the parents that choose-yes, it IS a choice they are making-NOT to discipline their children. It doesn't really matter what the reason is, it is unfair to the child, and has circled all the way around to a society that is so sick of poor behavior, screaming, foul language (yes, even small ones), and such that we now have to enforce even further regulation on life because of it. The Word clearly states that we are disobedient in not disciplining and providing structure, balance, and I would add morals, values, and principles to the child's life. Is it any wonder that they are the way that they are? They can be so obnoxious. There are several couples at my Church who, decided to wait until a little ater on to have children, one of the pair has already raised several-and te behavior of their child is completely unruly....and NOTHING is done about it. NOTHING. Running through Church, talking out loud, not sitting still slamming doors....all while the Word is being preached.....and the mother just shakes her head. No one there says anything to them about it either, and they are not the only family with this situation. I am seeking the Lord in prayer about this and what to do. It is not the child's fault....it all falls back to the parents. Let me say something to the parents....if you were treated wrongly by your parents, and you're angry, undisciplined, etc., take the action to change yourself and the life of your child. Give up the right to see someone else punished for the wrongs you have endured, and lay them at the Cross. You cannot walk through life blaming others for your behavior and how your life is, but the Word gives you tools and FOF provides tools. There are no excuses. Stop the problem at your house, on your door step, and stop pointing the finger of blame and ridicule at everyone else. There should not be any wonder at all why our society is the way it is. Stand up, be a man or woman of God, take Jesus as your Lord and savior, and move forward in a positive manner.
It seems there is a trend here. Believe it or not, I feel this may be a symptom of the breakdown of the family in our society. People may be losing their tolerance for noisy children because it is happening more and more. I have had conversations with folks from previous generations, who have consistently said that children used to be more polite years ago. Can it be, as our families have fallen apart around us, that more and more parents are so overwhelmed with parenting by themselves that children are acting out more? Parents are overwhelmed, and as a result their children are not supported and secure, and act out. The parents get more frustrated, and many just give up. They feel they can't handle their children alone without help. Often, too, parents feel guilt over the breakup of the family, and they shower their children with gifts and privileges. I have known people who actually felt guilty if they had to reprimand their kids, and would avoid it at all costs ("they have been through so much; how can I be hard on them?"). Their kids were terrors...
Well, let's assume for a moment that these businesses are in the wrong. What do you do to stop it? Legislate them to require admittance to children? That is an extremely dangerous precedent to set.
It is for that reason that, right or wrong, I support the businesses that choose to do this. Consumers already have power over businesses and vote with their dollars. So, in my opinion, the issue is not with the business, but rather the culture as businesses merely reflect the values of a culture.
Now, philosphy aside, I actually like that some businesses are doing this. It is not that I dislike children or think that they are not valuable, quite to the contrary. However, that said, it would be nice every so often to go somewhere where I don't have to see a three year old screaming at his mother with language that I, as an ex-sailor, am impressed by (but not in a good way).
I love children, especially babies!
But, as we wish for others to show respect to our faith (regardless of whether they do or not) I believe that we should show others respect other's business choices as well. There are times to stand strong and fight, to fight for our faith, but this is not one of those situations or times. When we start dictating to businesses on something like this... we may be actually presenting the behavior that we are taught against in the Word of God. Additionally, there are so many different parenting skills and ideals and some people are not considerate of others concerning their children and restaurants just do not want to be put in a postiion to deal with this and offend customers.
Sometimes, parents who go out and just want a peaceful night at dinner because they have small children at home should also be able to do so.
May God bless and lead us for His glory!
My husband and I have three children whom we have taken everywhere with us even travelling on a plane once a year. We have always been complemented how well our children behaved. And this is because we have strived to "bring our children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord". I really would hate to be inhibited to travel or go to a restaurant without our children.
However, I can understand the reason for such policy. Last year, my family and I travelled to Chicago and towards the last hour of our flight, a 5 or 6 year old boy had a tantrum and whined, cried, yelled and had a meltdown in the enclosed plane. We looked back two rows behind us to find out what was being done to control the child and the parents were ignoring the behavior, maybe, thinking that their child would eventually get tired and stop the tantrum. The flight attendants did nothing to control the situation. In the meantime, passengers like us were totally bothered and disturbed by the child's behavior. Thirty minutes into the meltdown, another little boy came down the aisle and asked the boy who was having a tantrum, "Why are you crying?". The whining, crying and yelling stopped at that point.
I think, this policy is an evolutionary result to the promotion of "spanking is not good for the children" which came about a decade or two ago. Parents are so afraid to discipline their children or have a very distorted thinking about child discipline.
I am a Great Grandmother and see no probllem with no children allowed at some places. Most children today are NOT well behaved and and the parents just let them scream, run wild or just be a nusance to everyone in a restaruant. I say about time!!!!!
Bye the way, when my children were small,back in the sixties, they were NOT allowed in military commissarys.
I find that most adults don't have trouble with children who have the occasional meltdown in a restaurant. Life happens. People have trouble with the parents who do little to train/teach their children how to behave in public places and let them run all over the place.
It's a businiess' choice in how to run their business, and while I agree that children are a blessing, and am thrilled to me a mother of 2 and one on the way, I can completely empathize with the businiesses making these rules.
Not only are children unpredictable, sometimes adults (particularly those who choose to not have children), want to be away from the sounds of kids having a meltdown, or just plain being loud. Add to that the maddening epidemic of parents who simply don't discipline their children, or else have very lax rules about what is or is not appropriate in a public setting. Those parents (through their lack of response to their children) even irritate me! How much more so would people that don't want to be around children avoid places where those people frequent?
I think you article is slanted and does not present the facts as another reader posted a comment regarding the Whole Foods "child free shopping time". I am mother with two lovely very well behaved children but I know that even I have difficulty getting my shopping and errands run when my children are with me all the time. I get distracted and I tend to forget what I supposed to be doing. I do not think this a trend towards "intolerance of children", IN FACT I think it is a wake up call to all the VERY SLACK parenting that is going on nowdays. I see families with NO RULES OR REGARD all the time letting their children run around and do "what they want when they want"!!!! I have seen small children at PG-13 movies, I have seen children at smoke filled bars and restuarants around inapporpriate language, adult behaviour, and adult shows on. I have seen parents let their 9 and 10 year old kids read inappropriate books and watch adult tv programs. I think this type of MESSAGE from the baby boomer generation is a direct CALL OUT on the type of riduculous parenting that is going on in this day and age. Children are children and need to grow up slowly and take their time. They should rules, bedtimes, and their should a time and place for what they can and can not do. I was recently on a cruise and I put my girls to bed a 10 pm (which is late but it was a vacation treat). Then a family member watched the girls for us so my husband and I could go relax in the cruise hot tub. Well when we got there at 10:30 pm the hot tub was full of little kids!!!! that is just ridiculous and completely out of control. Now little kids have cell phones, iPads, laptops, etc....there is just no parental control anymore!!!!
Kids don't even need to wait till they are grown up anymore to experience anything...they can have it all when they are kids "served on a silver platter"!!!!! Sorry but this time I DO NOT agree with you JIM. I think the baby boomer generation is trying to tell us to watch out or we are going to have a really messed up generation of spoiled dysfunctional kids that expect it all and don't follow rules!
I would be in favor of "adult only" options at theaters, restaurants, etc. With that said ... frankly, it's sad that our culture has gotten to this point ... but, it is PARENTS who are to blame. At the risk of sounding like an cranky old man (I'm not quite 60 years of age), it is offensive and more than irritating when my wife and I and/or friends/family go out to dinner or go to a movie and have the evening ruined by parents who refuse (even when confronted) to control their kids enough to keep them from disrupting everyone around them.
I don't blame the kids. We had four (all grown & married). When they were kids ... they acted up in public too. But, we didn't tolerate it escalating to the point of disrupting/irritating people around us. Often, we left the restaurant - took the food home to eat; took the kid out to the car, etc. I'm not trying to make our family (or our generation) sound better than anyone elses ... but, generally speaking, there was a common courtesy practiced by most. Concern for those around you that said: "hey, this isn't fair to others around us ... we should give up our desire to have a peaceful meal out or enjoy a movie."
So, what's wrong with labeling certain showings of a movie as "no children allowed" or "adults only?" What's wrong with setting aside certain sections of a restaurant for "adults only" ... or, better yet, the restaurant manager asking the customer with disruptive kids to leave or take control of their kids out of courtesy to others.
First businesses did not allow Black's (negros), now children are not allowed. Seems to be the same situation, just a different population. I think it is UNLAWFUL. Sounds like a violation of the 14th ammendment of the U.S. Constitution.
All persons born or naturalized in the Untied States and subject to the juristiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and oif the State wherein they reside. No State shall abridge the privileges or imunities of citizens of the United Stantes; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its juristiction the equal protection of the laws.
Unfortunately someone willhave to be denied service and then will have to file suit to get any remedy.
I have always enjoyed being with my own kids more than anything else, enjoying experiences with them. But I doubt everyone is comfortable with kids around, especially when they haven't been taught to behave in public. It could be due to parents not knowing how to control their kids in public and annoying people, but it could be just the pendulum of society swinging back to the days when children weren't taken everywhere and weren't included in everything the adults did.
I think the trend isn't about people not liking childern but about the fact that many parents are not controlling there Childern. I was at a movie a few months ago and a Women brough her child into the movie and it started crying. Not the 1st time I have seen that. What I have never seen before is the Mother just sat there. 15 Min later an Usher had to come in and ask her to leave. She made a scean like she had a right to be there and let her Child cry for 15 Mins. It isn't an intorlance for Childern but more an intorlance for bad Partents who aren't controlling there childern.
Thanks
Robert
I fully believe that children are blessings from the Lord. Regarding this new 'trend', I believe it could be an 'answer' to a business delimma. Recently, my husband ate breakfast in a quiet restaurant, in a town of about 4-500 people. A woman with her three children were there to eat breakfast as well - only, in this case, all the children (6 and under) were terribly misbehaving - screaming, yelling, throwing food, etc. Obviously, the woman had zero control. Customers began moving to a section of the restaurant further away from the 'lone lady with her children'. After about 15min, my husband was the only person in the area with the Mom and kids. There is such a thing as being curteous to others when parents are out with their young children. If a child, no matter the age, is misbehaving, a quick correction or removal from the situation is appropriate. However, when the parent never gets the hint that others are being inconvenienced and made miserable, what is a restaurant or it's patrons to do? Setting "child free" hours may be their solution. It doesn't sound very nice to do, I would probably have found it offending when my four children were young, but, could I have 'blamed' the business?
If we want to see a change in these kinds of policies, then a little parental etiquette can go a long way! When shopping for groceries, alone with three children ages 2.5 and under, I would leave the grocery store before subjecting other customers/employees to a temper tantrum or a screaming child. When eating in a restaurant, I would take my child/children to the restroom or to our vehicle to administer discipline appropriate to the offense - and if it still did not work, I would take my children home. Was it fun? No...but it was necessary for the benefit of everyone.
It's shameful and an obvious result/example of adults increasingly becoming more selfish.
We don't want anyone or anything to "put us out". That's completely opposite to the true Christian way. I personally don't see how this isn't an example of age discrimination. You wouldn't be able to do the same to the elderly or a particular race.
On the other hand, parents need to understand that they need to be more responsible when taking their children out in public. They (the parents) should always use such a venture as a teaching opportunity on how to act in an appropiate way in public. Many young parents seem to think that they can allow their children to do whatever pleases them.
It seems that my sentiment echoes most that I have read here. I don't think child free dining hours or child free restaurants are in and of themselves a bad idea. When I go to a family restaurant, I expect to see children and have learned to tolerate the screaming and the running and the general chaos they cause because of lack of disciplining by the parents. HOwever, on the rare occasions when my husband and I can afford to go to a nice dinner, I think it would be great to limit kids. KID FREE movies-- same thing, If it's a family movie I expect kids (with parents--not by themselves), but for the late showing or a more adult movie, no crying babies would be wonderful. Churches provide "cry rooms" for parents with kids--maybe the movies should try something like that.
NO KID shopping hours would be great. Unfortunately, that is very hard to do with single parent households parents have limited resources to pay for a sitter and with two income families, the time for shopping is limited. I just stay out of Walmart Friday night and Saturday. Try to go during the week when school is in session.
I think the bigger problem is not so much the kids, but the parents who do not correct them. If I am out to dinner, or at the show, I do not think it is fair that I have to endure a loud talking child, crying, or peek a boo games at a fancy restautant. When my son was a toddler, my childless friends would invite me to a restaurant, and I'd spend the time quieting him, or reprimanding him to stay in his chair. It was no fun for me, nor fair to the other patrons. I chose to not go out with him until he was "civilized" enough to sit still politely in a restaurant....you know, when he was about 12! :-)
It's not the kid's fault, it's the parents who neglect their duties. Our culture says that the world revolves around children, yes they are a fantastic blessing, a wonderful gift from God, but there is a responsibiity that comes with having them, and today's society says "it's not my fault". I wish there was a childrens seating section in a plane, how often I have has my seat kicked the entire flight, parent unawares. Or an adorable & friendly baby playing over the seat, cute, but not for the entire flight! And of course, babies cry, that's natural. If the parents are not experineced travelers, if they have exhausted their distractions while sitting on the tarmac waiting to take off, then you can end up with a crying baby for hours. I sound pretty cranky about kids, but when I was one, my mom "trained" me on how to act in public & that there were expectations.
It's really not too different from dog owners who let their dogs out & then leave them barking in the yard for hours on end because "he has a right to be outside"! Yes, & I have a right to enjoyment ouside too! Whew, I did go on a rant, but you asked!
I have been in many venues where people brought crying babies, making it impossible to hear the play being produced, the orchestra playing, or to enjoy a meal. Therefore, I I I don't mind that there may be certain places that are for adults only. That decision should be up to the restaurant or the privately-owned theater. All venues that are appropriate for adults are not appropriate or enjoyable for children. I strongly agree that people should be free to go to some places where they can be sure that no crying babies or misbehaving children will be around. I can't help believing that there will continue to be many, many opportunities for parents to take their children out in public.
Kris C. was right on about the potential court cases.
While, I have three children and love them dearly, when they were young there were certain things as parents that you have to give up. If you want to take your kids out to eat, there's Chuck E Cheese for that. There were many times I removed my child from a restaurant or gathering because they were disturbing others, and that was not something I took pleasure in! The problem today I believe that most families have NO GOD in their lives and really are too selfish to even consider that their child might be disturbing someone else.
Two weeks ago I went out to eat at Olive Garden with my 22 year old daughter. They sat us at a table with two children at the next table with several adults. Within minutes the youngest (about 3-4 years old, I'm guessing) was rolling around on the floor right next to our table, just playing around while the parents ignored him. Eventually the father came to retrieve him - but not after our conversation was interrupted by an annoying child! Another incident in a crowded restaurant, two couples sat and chatted while their (approximately) 14 month old screamed to high heavens in the high chair. I finally leaned over and caught one man's attention and said 'HELLLOWWW???" and nodded over towards the child. That man gave me the dirtiest look! The manager came over and apologized to us and several other tables for the rude couple with the screaming child.
Personally, I think restaurants are tired of hearing people complain - and I DON'T BLAME RESTAURANTS ONE BIT! I would DEFINITELY FREQUENT A RESTAURANT WITH ADULT ONLY TIMES! Unfortunately, its the bad parenting in our society that causes it!
I think that if businesses want to implement age limits for certain business hours, that's fine. I do worry when airlines want to follow suit though, restricting where a child can sit. Public transportation and public services should not be able to set this kind of restriction. Some may argue that commercial airlines are private businesses, but they really aren't. They are regulated by the government, just like Amtrak and other forms of public transit.
Businesses that think they can survive completely without parent business may find themselves out of business very quickly.
My husband & I eat out frequently. If we go to a family restaurant early in the evening, then we must expect that children will be there. But if we go late - 7:00 p.m. - we have the expectation that children won't be eating that late. If they are, maybe that's why they're so cranky! Also, if we go to an expensive restaurant, part of what you're paying for is atmosphere & that's totally ruined by screaming children.
We had a special needs child that couldn't sit still long enough to eat out, so we didn't. Parents shouldn't be putting children in a situation where they know they will likely get out of control.
I don't think this restaurant owner did this unless he'd had a considerable number of complaints. Maybe he was faced with a lot of patrons threatening not to return.
I would be in favor of restaurants specifying that after a certain hour, dining would be child-free.
I love children! I love to hear them play and laugh and just be who they are and I could watch them all the day long in a park or backyard while they delight themselves in the world they are exploring. But when they begin to infringe on others who are spending time and money to enjoy an atmosphere free from noise and stress from undisciplined little ones then I don't see any reason why some establishments should offer their patrons an opportunity for a little reprieve. Our world should not cater to and revolve around children and the free range of their undeveloped social behaviors.
The problem at the core is that too often parent's selfishly think that their children have every right to run through restaurants and scream and yell and carry on without any thought and courtesy to others. Obviously, good behavior needs to be taught and what I see in public today is a far cry from teaching anything at all except that children are allowed to behave any way they want.
We recently spent our vacation at a very nice resort in Hawaii and they had several pools including one that was deemed and posted the "quiet pool". There were several children in the pool yelling and being far from "quiet" while their parents looked on adoringly at their little darlings. We had to leave to go and find some peace and quiet.
As the church goes, so goes the culture. It has been my observation that Sunday morning worship meetings at the typical church strive to be a child-free environment. It is the norm for churches to separate parents from their children as often as possible. My wife and I have endeavored to keep our children (we have five, ages siz through 19) with us during worship throughout their childhood. It would be truly refreshing to see the church reverse its course and applaud the presence of children in the sanctuary as the miners did so long ago in that theater in California.
Let's have the church lead the way in welcoming children before we point fingers at the world for their attitude toward them.
If the business can stay in business with this policy, it's their choice. I don't think we need the government involved in making a law about this! I have 4 children and don't have a problem with kids, even screamers. I fly just about every week and they don't bother me but I do push my ear buds a little further into my ears and turn up the Ipod. I understand that loud children to some are like smokers to me in the same places. Don't want to be around them. The problem becomes when parents ignore the child and let the child behave badly. My wife and I would get up and take our children outside or in the restroom so we wouldn't bother others. That's just common courtesy that we as a country have not passed on to our children.
Susan, Anne, and Erin nailed the problem. It's NOT the children, it's the parents who have not taught their children what appropriate behavior looks like, or else don't hold them accountable. It's not all parents -- far from it, and not likely to be the people reading this forum. But, it only takes a couple of lax parents to spoil it for the rest. I love kids -- yes, other people's kids! I'm a long-time public school elementary teacher who does exactly that with my whole heart. But, because I love these children, and because I believe that this is the ministry God has given me to do, I have expectations for their behavior, and I teach them about and try to model respect and consideration for others. More and more in recent years I've come up against the "it's all about me" aspect of today's culture. In a restaurant or movie or even a store, I do not have a problem with a bona fide meltdown if it is dealt with. I see it as a child acting his/her age; being tired at the end of the day; etc. It happens. I DO have a problem with, for example, unsupervised children racing wildly around the restaurant or store. Just today, I corralled a 3-year-old racing tearing through Target and returned him to his mother. She hadn't missed him. I did it not because he was bothering me but because the teacher in me can't stand to see a child in a potentially dangerous situation. She thanked me, but some people would consider my getting involved as interference. In fairness, if I am looking forward to a peaceful dinner, I don't choose a restaurant where time and place make it likely to have an abundance of kids.
One last thing: Monique makes a very important point. Too often we get our exercise by jumping to conclusions. If Whole Foods in Missouri is offering this service to families with kids, they should be lauded. I think the same thing every time I go to the gym and see the young moms bringing their youngsters into the childcare provided by the gym staff. It's a win/win situation.
I think banning children from places is not a good idea, and I agree with some of the comments above, that parents disciplining their children and not letting them run rampant is a big part of it. I also agree that yes, it is a sign of society's self-centeredness.
By banning children in certain restuarants/grocery stores, etc., it makes it a lot harder on the parents, who may not be able to afford a babysitter, and/or in the case of single parents, children going with the parents makes it much easier.
My mother was not a single mom, but my dad worked days, and she worked nights, and we went a lot of places with her. I remember the daily errands and we'd all go along in the mini-van.
We can;'t control when or where our children may throw tantrums, but we can try to correctly handle the aftermath. I look forward to being a mom one day, and trying to the best of my ability to rear them according to God's word. Children are such a blessing, I am so thankful that I work in a public library and I see and hear some of the cutest statements from children!
I think it's a great idea, as long as it doesn't go too far (I don't think it will). I don't think it's an attack on the family or anything; it's quite similar to having "no smoking" rules in restaurants....I no more want to have a nice meal disturbed by a raging toddler than I do cigarette smoke wafting into my eating area. This new process allows me to take my wife to a nice quiet dinner, or take the whole family to a child-friendly establishment. Hurray!
I totally agree with most of the comments already posted which seem to overwhelmingly place the responsibility on the many parents who no longer seem to be willing to spend the time and effort training their children so they will not only (Most of the time) be a blessing to be around, but will also learn about self-control and respect for others.
There is a place and time for everything. I am a grandmother and my grandchild behaves well in public simply because she had learned at a very early age that we would not give her the choice to do otherwise without unpleasant consequenses.
My rare evenings out with a friend(s) have often turned into total fiascos due to children who were acting as though they were in their own private playground while their caretakers were totally amused! The children are not to blame most of the time: All of them will try to push the envelope to the limit unless we set healthy boundaries for them. For that reason, yes, I am totally for some nicer restaurants or establishments cathering to adults only.
I think it is terrible to ban children of any age. Children are the beginning of our next generation. Without them our country will be in even worse shape in years to come. If we had the 40 million or so children who have been aborted they would be working and paying taxes and SS so that money wouldn't be a problem for the Feds. I absolutely love my grand children - they are the best! Can't imagine someone not allowing children in their place.
Like others have already inferred, I think the disruptions are more of a parent problem then a child problem, and I don't think they are fixed by 6 years old. I understand the reasoning for this and can respect it, but I don't think it is the solution.
Being a mom of 5 young ones, I also understand needing some no child time, and the suggested set aside hours for adults only seems like a nice idea. If it is important to you, you know when to attend.
I am actually more concerned with how intolerant churches have become of young children. I am not referring to screaming and tantrums or loud talking, but occasional noises that need to be hushed or even whispered questions. Like my Dad often reminds, how will they ever have the opportunity to ask "why do we do this?" if they are not allowed in the meeting? This is not only a problem at my church. While recently visiting another church, I was told by a lady, even before she asked my name, that there was a nursery. Though my 10 month old was quiet at the time, there was a clear understanding that any distraction would not be accepted. As a result, as soon as she started getting fidgety, I left.
And we wonder why our children leave the church when they are adults ... Sometimes it is hard for the parents to stay with this type of acceptance.
My five kids are not perfect but I will take them out of the public area to train them on how to behave. Also they are in training at home, in the car, at Gramma's house, etc. Parents need to be pro-active and learn how to train their children to behave.
Why couldn't a business kindly ask a parent or guardian to remove the child until calmed down? I think they would do that with a disruptive adult don't you?
Matthew 20:16
16 "So those who are last will be first. And those who are first will be last."
There is no way
I believe the trend of businesses "banning" children is a clear indication of the changing attitude in this nation toward children. They are increasingly seen as a "problem" rather than a blessing.
Well, I do agree with many of the comments above! Children ARE a blessing from the Lord! , but let's not forget "spare the rod, spoil the child"! Too many places, like California, for instance, if you take a misbehaving child who refuses to listen and give them a good old-fashioned loving but firm spanking, you may soon expect Child Protective Services knocking on your front door accusing you of child abuse!!
People want other parents to discipline their children, and yet those same people will look at you as if you are an abuser for gently but firmly spanking your child. All the "time -outs" in the world do not do the quick and effective job that a good old-fashioned spanking does for a two-year old throwing a temper tantrum.
Yes there is a trend toward childlessness (a more selfish and self-centered society and abortion on demand) as there is a trend of intolerance towards young children and families with young children. I also think though, that children are more prone to misbehave than generations past not because they are different but because times are different and many parents don't care to discpline or are discouraged or afraid to discipline correctly!
I think this "trend" of excluding families is indicative of a society whose self-centered pursuits breed intolerance.How far from the segregation
of black people down south decades ago, does this fall short of? Would we tolerate first class seating for certain races?
Yesterday my husband and I were traveling home from visiting our grandchildren for a few days and were looking forward to a nice quiet lunch in a nice restaurant. As we approached the door two moms and two little boys entered before us yelling and making lots of noise. I thought to myself, "I hope they don't sit near us" but they did. The boys stood in the seats yelling and withthe moms yelling back at them during the whole meal. Needless to say we didn't enjoy our meal and neither did the other customers. Yes, it's great to see some families with well behaved children but it would also be great to have some restaurants that were child-free to choose from.
I think it is up to the business owner who they want to include. I have seen so many unruly children in restaurants and other businesses that I just can't even imagine what their parents are thinking. Most of it is selfishness, laziness, other (?) on the part of the parent. When I was growing up we rarely ate out--that was something for adults to do. Now, children are allowed to experience everything adults do out in the world from the time they are born because parents don't want to miss out on anything and stay home. I see parents constantly trying to reason with their little one--as if a toddler can reason. Parents need to grow up and parent. 'Children should be seen and not heard' was pretty much the rule when I was growing up. I think that held true for many, many years. Now kids think they have the same authority as adults.
No, I am not a kid hater. I am a retired teacher and love children. My husband and I work with the 2's and 3's every Sunday at our church and we enjoy them. We also have 5 grandkids who live nearby and we adore them. But it sure is easier to be around them when they mind and it's way more fun. Parents want the schools, churches, and daycare to teach their children what was once taught by the parent in the home. There's a bigger problem looming than just banning children!
I think this is really sad. Children are a part of our culture and very being!!! I understand that there are times when children should be left a home with a sitter, especially if you know it's going to be a late night. Children will always be whinning when the are tired, some adults I know get that way as well!!
Welcome to yet another cultural break through!!
As some have stated, the issue is not children in general, but the lack of general parenting our nation is suffering from. Undisciplined children who's parents either don't know or don't put the work into raising good kids. I'm not a perfect parent, but my wife and I were raised old school and we raise our kids to a high standard. I have 5 children now, I remember when we had 4 ages 2, 4, 6, 8 we would eat out frequently. We taught them to sit quietly (even the 2 year old), eat with manners, and yet still had a great time as a family. We would often have strangers come up and comment on how well behaved our kids were and how enjoyable it was to watch them. Now having said that, it took a lot of time and effort to teach them this, but it is completely doable and something our society has devalued. People LOVE to see well behaved children, they are a joy to all they meet. Undisciplined children are just uncomfortable/unenjoyable to be around. You feel bad for the parent who is embarassed, for the child who is acting out, and for the people around you who have to deal with it all. I don't recall the cry for these types of child-less services in the 50's when the family standard was more in sync. People didn't take their 3 year old to an R/PG-13 film. They didn't let them run around like wild animals, speak with dissrespect to elders, have no regard for authority, or a total dissregard for the "golden rule" (do unto others...). Without a mass turn around back to God's standards for our family, I think this is only the begining.
As a teacher for the past 28 years, I have seen the good and the bad in families. If parents are parenting and expecting their children to show respect and show self-control, then I am all for family friendly theatres, shopping, restraunts, etc. But it would also be helpful if there were a time when I could be free of unruly children who are not being parented by any one. I love children and I support families. However, I have increasingly been forced to eat, shop, watch movies,etc. where children are running loose, hollaring and shouting, talking back to parents, throwing fits all in public without any correction from the parent.
There are places where I go as an adult and expect to not deal with the above scenerios. I have grown to expect it at fast food places, matinee movies, Target and Walmart. But I hope I don't have to tolerate it at Sacs 5th Ave, my favorite steak place, or evening movies. Kids are welcome at Sacs, etc. but I would expect them to be on their very best behavior.
Children need to be taught how to act with respect in public. My parents raised 5 children; my brothers have raised 13, and now there are 9 great neices and nephews. All of whom I would gladly go anywhere with because they have been taught respect and self-control at home.
I n conclusion, let me leave a real life experience at Pizza Hut. I have a friend who has 8 children. One day I gave her a break and took 6 of her children ages 2-10 for the day. She dressed them in appropriate clothes for play and pizza. When I walked into Pizza Hut each of the two older children took two of the younger ones to the bathroom to wash hands, etc. Meanwhile, I got a highchair for the youngest and a booth. They returned, sat down, ordered with me and had converstation while we waited for the food. We discussed their week and what playground to visit in the afternoon. When the food came, it was passed around to each child in turn by the oldest boy. They ate without mess and continued to talk quietly as we ate. When we were finished the oldest girl stacked the plates and trash. The second oldest washed the baby's face and got the trash off the tray. There was nothing on the floor in the way of scraps or trash. The manager came over and commented to each of the children as to how well they had behaved. I just sat and supervised. Children can be taught manners and civil behavior at a very young age if someone is willing. We had a grand time at the park and ice cream after. This was 20 years ago and all these children are model citizens today because a mother and dad invested time to train them to be outstanding young men and women. What a legacy. I was privileged to have known her and them.
I
Obviously restaurants cater to different clientele, and you can usually tell when you walk in the door whether it's a kid-friendly place or not. Bringing our two young preschoolers to a restaurant that was not kid-friendly once was a very stressful experience, and I've decided for all parties involved (our kids, me, the wait staff, and other diners) to avoid such episodes in the future. Having a sign on their door excluding young kids doesn't offend me--it just helps me better understand what type of clientele the restaurant is appealing to, and therefore decide if it's a "date night" place or a "family" place.
It is sad to see. Our children are grown, 19 and 22. My wife an I eat out quite often and even though we do not have children younger than 6 eating with us we soon will, our grandchildren if the Lord so chooses. I will not patronize the restaurant.
I believe children are a blessing from God. So is the job of parenting. It's a parent's job to try their best to keep their children quiet when in "adult" public places. It's also the onlooker's job to have paitence with a struggling parent, not condemn them. The "need" for adult-only restaurants is a symptom of selfishness - on both the part of the parents who refuse to delay their own gratification by refusing to remove their children when they are disruptive, and on the part of impatient onlookers who think it's "all about them" and unrealistically demand a child never make a peep. How is a child ever supposed to learn to eat in an adult setting unless he's allowed to practice when he's younger (and maybe a bit louder)? And, how is the child supposed to learn to eat in an adult setting if his parents refuse to teach him to be quiet and not throw food or yell?
I could feel anger starting to seeth through me at first on this topic. I really do understand that not everyones kids behave, or are not expected to behave rather in public venues. Then there are toddlers who just have had enough and melt down.
What burns me is that I actually got kicked out of church for having my grandson with me. Oh yeah, upset, very, to the point where I ran out crying. My daughter told me not to worry, just go into the nursing mom room. Well, the big sign on the door said no one except for nursing moms. Okay, then I found a door that said Dad's room to bring kids. It was empty, had a little window to look out in the childless congregation, and by the way, it was located in the back right of the church so people would have to shift and look way to the right to see us. My grandson being about a year old was afraid of the dark so I turned the light on and held him and sometimes set him on the floor to read or play. An usher rushed in, flipped the light off, which caused the baby to cry, as the usher yelled at me that I was disrupting the congregation since they could see me. I said, oh heaven forbid if anyone sees a grandma going to church with her grandson. I was also rude and told him he obviously had not seen the story where Jesus says to Let the little children come unto me. I then ran out with the baby and just can't bring myself to attend church anymore. I pray and pray, but don't see an answer to my problem.
Sorry for being long winded, yes, agreed, private business can do as they like, children/no children, smoking/no smoking, pets or not. As someone mentioned, other business will crop up to cater to someone or something.
For the record, I'm a kid patient person, 4 kids, homeschooled, expected and did behave well everywhere most of the time, now raising a toddler grandson since his birth. If he acts up, I remove him from the problem, redirect and try to solve the problem. I understand how people without kids don't really want to hear a screaming kid.
As society becomes more and more self absorbed and me-centric, so goes the trend in parenting. Many parents completely fail to teach their children to respect others, and they think nothing of letting them run wild and disrupt everyone around them. Our pastor even let his son run wild around the church as though it was his own playroom.
If it takes some sort of restrictions to let others dine in peace so be it. Unfortunately, once again those causing the problems are making others suffer for their own belligerence.
I don't believe it is as much an intolerance towards children as it is a continued path toward a self-centered world. I agree that at times an active child can be annoying. I think there is a time and a place. But this new trend is a sad statement about our society.
I travel extensively. I see kids acting out at times and I see parents many times frustrated by their children, usually more in their mind than in anyone elses. I try and always comment to the parents that they should enjoy their kids, accept them for who they are and where they're at in life. I always tell them, been there, done that. I'd go back to those days anytime. They were the BEST days. Maybe the complainers should try commitment, family and kids. I will NOT do business with any business that implements a policy of tearing down families.
Reminds me of the famous Bonhoeffer quote that went something like "When they came for the Jews I did not speak out because I wasn't a Jew, when they came for the Unionist I did not speak out because I wasn't a unionist, when they came for etc... when they came for me there was nobody left to speak out.
How many times have we all thought " that will never happen " then it does! This is crazy and I will not support business who behave this way.
It will probably be a growing trend in society to exclude those "noisy, smelly beings" some people insist on taking everywhere. I notice that pets are more welcome at more establishments than ever before though. And for some time animals have had more legal protection than humans in the womb.I Recently read that Americans will spend some 50 billion dollars on their pets this year.Up is down, right is wrong.
Yes, it is a sign of the times.
I
think a lot of the problem is the parent, not the kids. We were watching a movie and the child sitting behind my husband kept kicking the bottom of my husband's chair. Hard kicks, over and over again. My husband turned around and asked him to stop kicking his chair, and he replied, "Liar, liar". The man, I would guess to be his Dad, ignored the entire thing and just kept looking at the movie. We also attended a funeral this year and the child sitting in the pew behind us had a small toy car in his hands. He would run it on the back of the pew, back and forth, on the top of the pew behind our heads. He would also talk during the service and made a noise that was either gum smacking or a bad cold. We could not hear the service and wanted to move, but it was in an obvious area of the church and would have drawn even more attention. I think some parents see "going out" as a way to let their children loose on others while they get a break. I hate to say it, but I asked not to be seated by kids because of past experiences. I also do not think it has always been this common to have "bad kid events" in public. I think parents are less willing to train their children. Sad.
I feel it could be a "Pandora's Box". As long as the government does NOT get involved I believe that if that business owner wants to have only adults, then so be it. It could close his/her business or it could build it. I am all for children and have never minded them anywhere, but there are times I would like to "discipline" the parents! I am in aggreement with "Greg". He is the kind of parent I would not ever mind sitting next to in a restrauant - disciplining children, in love, shows them you love them. I love seeing families out together, but if there is a restaurant that would like to cater to adults only, because we know some parents are not good with disciplining, then so be it.
Zester says:
My wife and I have six children and twenty four grandchildren. We never allowed out children to be unruly or impolite in public. Now our children are teaching these same principles to our granchildren. For this trangenerational blessing we are most thankful to God. Our parents taught us that "Pretty is as pretty does" and being impolite or unruly in public was never allowed. Our whole family travels a great deal and we always take the children with us and we don't have to worry about disrupting others when we enjoy meals out and other activities where the public is invited.
I LOVE children. The problem is not children but parents with entitlement attitudes. I went to the movies two nights ago at the IMAX; paid $16 apiece for my husband and myself. Could NOT believe a family came in with a baby! What parent with any kind of consideration would bring a baby to a movie theater with intensive scenes and LOUD sound effects! The movie was 8:30 at night and lasted until 11:30. Right in the middle of an intense scene the baby started crying. The father took the baby out but stood in the aisle leading outside so he could still watch - needless to say, the baby was still heard. We could not afford to pay a sitter when our children were small, so we stayed home until they were old enough to know how to behave themselves. There are restaurants catering to children; in our area even a movie theater catering to families with children. Babies are not small that long; it will not kill anyone to wait until they are older to go out.
A couple of years ago we went to a restaurant for my husband's birthday. There was a family there after 8pm to get dinner; the 18-2yr old with them had not eaten yet and needless to say was screaming the entire time we were there. They were 2 feet away. The parents did NOTHING (which isn't surprising if they hadn't fed her until after 8 at night!).
I have no problem with a child crying in a store unless the parent is ignoring the screaming to the detriment of others. When my children were small if they wouldn't stop screaming I would take them outside and deal with it. I realize there are times when that is not possible (sick child and getting medicine or some such situation) but the current thought is "you have to put up with my brat whether you like it or not!" We need to have more consideration for other people!
I love kids--I have 3 adult children of my own, 7 grandchildren, and have taught school for over 31 years. I think this ruling by some establishments is a response to the lack of proper parenting that encourages proper behavior and respect for others. This seems to be lacking in all of society to a large degree--adults and children, as well. It is sad to see and to be a part of.
I know it is possible to raise children that other people like to be around--we did. Our daughter and son-in-law are model Christian parents who parent lovingly and with discipline. They parent in such a way that the little boys can make choices that will help them be more sensitive to others and responsible as they mature.
It is way to easy to succomb to selfishness and not take the time to 'train up a child in the way that he/she should go'. How many times do you hear a parent say, "That's not appropriate!", for instance? Our lack of SELF-discipline shows itself in the permissiveness so rampant in our society. You can't give what you don't have. Discipline is just one of those. Children want established perameters and parents need to give children what they need. Society would respond positively, we'd see.
Children are a gift to be carefully and prayerfully treasured!
I love kids, love, love love them, however, there is a time and place, and i agree that it's the bad parenting that's driving this. For example, at church, there are bright, cheerful, state of the art, well staffed kids areas with worship and interactive lessons geared for all ages, but consistently, parents let their kids decide where they would like to go, what they would like to do, where they would like to run, and what they would like to say - duing the services - greatly disrupting others. It would be nice to sometimes have separate areas on planes, in restaurants, and even in church if kids services are provided. There are plenty of opportunities for family activities, but an hour or two apart sometimes would give everyone a break.
I have four kids, one grown, two in college and one still at home. I homeschooled them through their elementary school years. Honestly, babies & toddlers can be quite unpredictable, but older kids, if properly disciplined, will behave anywhere. One of the rules I learned when they were younger was that if they were not tired & hungry, they usually did what they were supposed to do. Too many parents don't know how to train their kids. I was on a plane yesterday with many such kiddos...and there was no way to get away from them!
On the other hand, I saw an article in our local paper today that showed a picture from a local high-end shopping mall. It showed a picture of a couple hundred moms and their children, all at the mall to watch a performance held there just for the kids. Trust me...that mall had the right idea. Hold a show for the kids, and the moms (and their money) will come. Those moms can shop during the day when everyone else is at work.
I truly think that markets develop as they're needed. If there are more childless families, then there will be restaurants, etc. that start to accomodate them. But there will always be fast food places, etc. that will market themselves to the kids. Thank goodness. ![]()
As far as the recent one goes....this is America and the owner has the right to run his buisness as he sees fit to do. It has been shown to actually improve buisness in some cases. My two kids have been going out to eat ALL their lives just for that reason....it is normal for them and they act very well but they are still kids and thats OK. Sure, I would like to go to a child free place once in awhile because I have been bothered by unrulely children too.
We have 4 children who are almost gorwn, and of course they are a blessing! I think that the trend toward 'childless' atmosphere has more to do with parents who do not control or discipline their children. I did not like to pay for a sitter and an expensive meal on a date night with my husband, only to have toddlers running around my table. I flew often with all 4 kids by myself, and while they were not eprfect, if they did do something that was rude or annoying, they had to apologize and stop the behavior. If I were paying the money for a first class ticket, I would be very frustrated if I sat next to a crying baby, even though I know that babies can't help it. I like the idea of 'child free' times. I think from a business sense it would be nice, especially if it isn't 100% child free -that way singles and families can enjoy. I think it is a sad commentary that today's parents have such an entitlement attitude that rude and obnoxious behavior is not stopped because 1)No one else tells my children what to do, 2) They are just being kids, 3) they are showing their creativeness or joyfulness, 4) Too much pressure will kil their self-esteem, 5) The parents don't want their kids to be mad at them, 6) If they try to reprimand them they will throw a huge temper tantrum,.............and the list goes on. What ever happened to courtesy and manners and going out of your way to making sure others were enjoying themselves?
Yes kids can be very disruptive when out of control. Yes, Greg is a parent who respects the space of others. I think there is a fine line here. Of course we all need to love children and know that we were once one of them.
I do believe that the respect for others is becoming more absent from our society. I think this is the real issue. There ought to be boundaries for us all. I think children should be allowed in most places but if they were to get out of control, which they often do, then it is up to the person in charge to take them out and settle them down until they are calm.
My son in law used to take his baby daughter out and walk around with her whe she was screaming and crying at a restaurant. People also do this in church.
The children are not the issue, it is the rude, inconsiderate parents or caregivers who need direction.
How about a sign saying "Children are welcome here but please take them out of earshot when they are too loud and noisy and respect others space. Please return when they have become calm". Or something like that!
Too bad it is not natural for many people to be respectful and use common sense when things are disturbing the peace. As I said, children are not the problem but the adults are!
Situations need to be handled in the same way as they would a raucaus adult! Tolerate a little, then a gentle request, then call the bouncer.
But let's not punish everyone for the wrongs of some.
Yes, I think it's an anti-family attitutude. No one is complaining about the loud, rude adults.
As a large family, and when I just had littles, I would try to go on the off times, where we'd less likely disturb others.
And parents do need to be told they DO have a right to control their children! So many messages in our culture tell parents they don't have this right. And they don't know how anymore.
Let's all be kind to each other. There is the long day with bad news at the dr, the long tirp, the illness .....
Monique
I can't help but wonder if these bans are being imposed because parents aren't doing their job. I have two young children - a 1-year-old and 3-year-old. My husband and I don't go to "nice, date-type" restaurants with the kids, because we know our boys might disrupt others. Rather, we choose places that are already a bit noisy, so that any noise our children make blends in. And should our children start to get antsy, I'll take them outside so they can burn off energy.
Likewise, we don't take our children to see movies, plays, etc.... b/c we know at their ages, they would be disruptive to others. We also tailor our outtings around naps and eating schedules, so our kids don't act up in public b/c they're tired or hungry. Yeah, we might miss out on doing some things right now, but it's so worth the trade-off of having our wonderful boys.
It's sad thatit has come to this, but I think it's a result of lazy, and/or inconsiderate parents vs. it being truly about the kids. Imagine trying to enforce a ban that said, "Lazy parents not allowed."
yes and no do I believe in childless restaurants my point is have a special section for that family place YES YOU CAN NEVER TELL THE ACTIONS OF CHILDREN BUT FOR RESTAURANT TO DO SUCH A THING IS OUT OF LINE such a time and place for family (sign of the times is coming) we are getting to a point of selfcentered , Heartless people coming of age time
PS restaurants an have special times for family times too. morning,afternoon, or evening time slots...:)
I think a long time ago people knew better than bring a small child to a very nice restaurant, and if they did, would remove the child immediately if they acted up. Parents now tend to see their kids as the center of the universe and are oblivious to the other paying customers.
This trend is about kids not behaving in public, not intolerance of children in general.
I love children. I teach preschoolers with special needs, so I have the best of both worlds: I can devote myself to teaching and loving children as my work but then as a single woman I can leave and be free to pursue other interests without the 24/7 responsibility and demands of parenthood. I have definitely noticed that it is true that sometimes parents/caretakers get really involved with what they are doing and seem to be unaware that their children are capable of potentially dangerous behavior. For a period of time I was going to a Dunkin Donuts to relax and work on a project, and on several occasions I noticed that small children were headed toward the door or toward another dangerous place. I had to call out to the parents so they would run after their children! My project happened to be art-related so I wound up giving the children some paper and some pencil crayons to keep them occupied. I was very concerned about the children, but I didn't mind the interruption. In fact, I rather enjoyed it. But I imagine if someone came really stressed out and in need of relaxation, this would have been very disturbing.
Maybe if a restaurant is large enough to have more than one section it could be sectioned off to a "Child Friendly" area, where families with small children could go and there could be paper and crayons provided, and a "Child-Free" area where people who would find the behavior of small children disturbing could have the quiet they are seeking. If a married couple with a family needed a to get away for a "date night" and some adult conversation, I can certainly understand that they wouldn't want to find themselves in an area where there were children who were loud and whose behavior was out of control.
A "Childless Restaurant" policy across the board would NOT be a good idea, and children do need to learn how to behave in public places. But sectioning off parts of the restaurant (perhaps something akin to what they used to do for "smoking" and "non-smoking") might not be a bad idea.
I get the drift and definitely agree that an overall lack of warmth toward children is not a good thing. Sometimes being around children is just what the Divine Physician prescribes--to open the heart, to help people realize that the world doesn't just revolve around themselves and their issues, and to help all of us see the world with a greater sense of wonder. As adults we teach children, but sometimes it is also the other way around. At least JESUS seemed to think so, when we read the Gospel.
I personally do not have children, but both my brother and sister do and it is all in how you raise them. You have TO TEACH THEM TO BEHAVE AND BE QUIET when out in public places like restaurants, church etc... and they need to be disciplined. My parents taught us to behave and disciplined us and we behaved. We were never allowed to talk thru a church service as so many kids do today, it is hard for some people to even concentrate on the Pastors words when you have someone chattering behind you or in front of you.
Back then our parents rarely took us out to eat as it just wasn't done back then, it was an adult treat to go out to dinner as it was expensive. Nowadays I think dates and going out are the norm. Parents come home from work tired and just do not want to deal with the kids or cooking so they go out. Kids run rampant thru restaurants, screaming, screeching etc... My Mom, sister and I were out one Saturday for brunch and their was a couple behind us with a boy about 3 or 4 years old who screeched and whined at the top of his lungs and the parents just sat there talking and did nothing. The entire room was distribed and after about 20 minutes 3 separate tables asked the manager if he could do something with them as we could not even talk. It was Mom's birthday so we were very disappointed in the whole experience. I am all for childless restaurants and childless movie times, etc... I personally do not like to go out and have screaming kids that no one pays attention to, disciplines or consoles. I love kids but they need to have parents who teach them and notice them and pay attention to them, they are the future of our world. If they have childless places then they will also have child and parent places for them to go to.
I would suggest that a part of the problem is that parents today seldom discipline their children and teach them not to cry without cause. Sure this is tricky, but interestingly enough the same culture that does not want to hear children cry is the culture that does not allow appropriate discipline in many cases.
Just some thoughts. If we believe in freedom and freedom for businesses to do as they please, then perhaps they should have the right to restrict children. Of course if enough people dislike this, like the fiddler, then businesses might change.
My opinion on this is it should be up to the owner of the restaurant. If his clientele wants this, I see nothing wrong with changing that. There is enough in our society that caters to children so why not cater to adults as well. It's all about freedom of choice in our society. We can choose how we run our businesses as long as it's ethical and even then we can choose to be unethical but we will suffer the consequences.
In a free market society which we are supposed to be, but that is on the chopping block but that's another topic. Anyway, the market dictates the demand. And if allowed to flourish it will all come out right. My son just took his kids to Great Wolf, all catered to children. So if you don't want to be around kids you wouldn't go there. In our country, it's all about freedom. Freedom to choose.
thanks.
I think it is brave of businesses to do that because a lot of people do take their children with them almost to everywhere. But, in America baby boomers are getting older and there a lot more older people rather than younger people. Older people have less patience for children and they have more expendable income so I think this is just the beginning and more businesses will follow suit.
Unfortunately, political correctness has led to not being able to effectively discipline your child, which, I think, has led in part to this new trend. Also, parents tend to not have proper schedules and, therefore, the child is sometimes tired or bored. This being said, I think that children are a blessing from the Lord and they should be taught how to behave in public, which you can't do if they're banned.
Perhaps this trend is due to a combination of factors. The mob of baby-boomers (I'm one of them) is gradually entering their senior years and perhaps many of them are asking for, even demanding, childless dining and motion picture peace. Although many (most?) boomers have grandchildren, they often like to choose the time spent with them. And I think this tendency is somewhat selfish- "I've done my time raising kids and now I want my space and leisure when I want them." Maybe businesses realize on what side their bread is buttered and wish to accommodate the wishes of this large (moneyed?) group.
Other bunches who may have similar desires for peace in public places are couples who have opted not to have children and singles, as well as the very elderly.
There is also the possibility that, with abortion so common, children have become less valued, barely tolerated and/or despised by some people.
Also, having reaped the consequences of permissive child rearing, are there more children out of control, loud, obnoxious, etc., in public places than there once were?
Personally, I love children (for 23 years, I've been a public school bus driver in our rural area) and prayed for grandchildren. Watch out when you do that; we were blessed with 6 (3 boys & 3 girls) in 4 years!
Please everyone be careful about judging others harshly. My first born was the most compliant and well behaved child I have ever seen. I used to be appalled by parents whose kids were screaming in the grocery store or running into people in restaurants. We were very proud of ourselves and couldn't believe all the parents who didn't control their their children! Then we had our second. Oh man did we understand what those other parents were going through because now it was our child screaming in the grocery store. I agree that many parents don't want to grow up and be the parents however many others have been blessed with kids that are on the noncompliant end of the spectrum. If God wanted to teach me humility it worked.
I think it's fine to not allow kids in restaurants - unruly kids don't bother me but they do bother other people.
Jim, I have my own business selling beauty products in women's homes through parties. One of my rules is "no children allowed". This is not because I dislike children but because I am there to make a profit.
I have found that the presence of children is 1. a distraction from my sales presentation, 2. a change from the atmosphere of the event that I am trying to create and 3. a hurdle to hold to my commitment to everybody to end the presentation on time while giving everyone the attention they deserve (children present usually cause a delay).
I'd like to emphasize that this was a "business decision". It's not the children's fault that they don't behave like adults - they're just behaving as they are... as "children". Is it exclusionary? Absolutely. This business decision has come with a cost: the cost of not selling to women who don't meet the qualification at the event. Should I choose to include these women in my market, it's my job to be creative to reach them.
Similar to the movie theaters, to be inclusionary, I provide the same service for moms with children by having events where children are "ok". Again, it's a business decision to reach that market segment.
Now, while this is a business decision, the reaction by the women is typically an understanding that their children are not allowed. No woman has come to my events upset that I didn't want her children there. Rather, there is an appreciative attitude that, for that moment in their lives, it's "all about them" for a change. I like to think that I am giving them a great service and that they're getting the full attention they deserve.
I do agree that there is a time & place for everything including children. Unfortunately parental discernment about these no brainer issues is at an all time low. It seems as if parents in this time period have made the child the focas of everything resulting in an unruly child (christians are some of the biggest offenders) and they are everywhere! Places that you can count on to be peaceful when you want a quite night out are long overdue! Also movie theaters that have adult viewing times is a great idea for christian couples who want a clean show to go to on date night without having a screaming kid sit near you and ruin the movie.There are more times that are appropriate for children to go to the theater.
While it does seem that society as a whole is becoming less friendly to children, we would be wise to remember that society has also become less friendly to parents. When I was young, if I misbehaved in a store or restaurant, I got a warning or two first, then some yelling, and if I still didn't comply, my Mom spanked me right there in front of everyone. But these days, you can't even threaten your kid with a spanking when you get home, for fear that someone might overhear and call the cops on you for child abuse. I have no children of my own, but I've watched my mom struggle to discipline my much-more-headstrong little brother in public since standards have become so ridiculous.
Parents need to step up to the plate and be parents, but the society has to allow the parents to do just that, also. I always feel sorry for parents with unruly kids who are trying to control them, but seem to have their hands tied.
I agree with the majority of the commenters who believe the fault to be with the parenting, not the children. Those of us with children and grandchildren can certainly tell the difference between an undisciplined child and a temporarily upset child for whom we obviously feel sympathy. When my husband and I are out in public and see well-behaved children, I often make it a point to compliment the parents. Frankly, I'd be afraid to comment to most parents of disruptive children. There are things that parents must (or at least, should) give up when raising small children--for most people, that is only for a few years.
I'd like to tell an amusing story. My daughter drove to another state with her four children and a niece and nephew (13, 13, 10, 10, 8 and 7.) They stopped at Braum's for dinner and a man at the next table asked her if all the children were hers. After she explained, he responded, "Is there something wrong with them?" Fortunately, she realized that he was simply unused to seeing so many well-behaved children--and rather tactless about his remark.
When our children (3 boys within 3 years) were young, if one of them made a noise that would bother anyone they were immediately taken out of the area if they would not stop. They were not returned until their behaviour was acceptable. This is only common politeness.
We have often gone into a restraurent and requested smoke free and children free because so many time if we do not we get a screaming child hanging over there seat screaming in our ears while the parents think it is cute. Actually we should ask for smoke free and stupid parents free because it is not the child as much as the rudeness and stupitity of the parents that is the problem. We love children but we also know the difference between the cry of a spoiled rotten child, a tired child, a sick child and a child that likes to hear themself scream. The tired and sick child should be taken home and taken care of properly. There again a parenting problem, having them out when they should not be out. The spoiled brat should be taken care of by being removed and I would like to sugest something be done to the child that most people would not do now a days but would help, But at the least they should remove the child from the area where other people are and not allow innocent people to suffer the consequences of the parents poor parenting skills. Like I said my husband and I love children but their is definately a difference in why children act so poorly in public and until the parents can get their act together others should not be forced to pay good money at a restaurant or movie theater etc. to have a horrible experience.
I hate to see/hear of this practice ... with parents not teaching children to behave in public places (or at home), I can understand the pressure business owners are experiencing these days! Just another example of unruly and misbehaving children! I'm a little surprised that they limit it to 6 and under! I've seen a lot of 8 and 10 year-old kids causing noise and behavior problems in public places! Especially in department stores; running around; knocking displays over; and, just otherwise being disrespectful and obnoxious! I have no problem with "children just being children", but I also want to see parents correcting and dealing with bad behavior!
Pretty soon, this practice may make it's way to "the church"! Some parents need to begin "parenting" and not just being "friends" with their children!
I love children. I do not love parents who don't make their children behave when in upscale restaurants. I love to have a quiet, romantic meal with my honey and don't appreciate it when out-of-control children ruin that experience.
Thus, I would totally understand a restaurant catering to us frazzled, need-a-date-night parents.
This is more like the result of an intolerance for lack of discipline from parents. Our children are now 16, 13, and 9. We have taken them to restaurants since they were babies. If they lost their focus on the things we brought to entertain them, it was time to go. If they started to misbehave, they were removed from the restaurant until they calmed down as they knew it was the only way to go back in to visit with the rest of the group. Baby steps.. a little at a time, and they can tolerate sitting down longer. We've never had a meltdown at a restaurant. Proper behavior comes with proper teaching.
I can completely understand a restaurant having to "parent" as there is such a loss of this in society right now. How many times have you cringed as "that kid" screams again at the top of their lungs, and the "parents" just look away. That aggravates me to the bone as we'd worked so hard at training our kids so others could enjoy being out to dinner with their families and friends.
I don't know if it's "right or wrong," but I understand.
I love children - I have four of my own and hope to have at least as many grandchildren someday. However, I believe it is the perogative of the business owner to limit his/her clientele to a more mature segment of the population, if they so desire. I think there will always be plenty of family-friendly restaurants to choose from, so I really don't see it as a big deal if some restaurants exclude young children. Personally, I wouldn't want to take a toddler to a fancy restaurant - if I have the opportunity to go out for a nice dinner I would rather be able to relax and enjoy the experience. There are plenty of places I could go if I wanted to take my child with me.
I think people aught to have the opportunity to go out and enjoy a quiet, relaxing meal - so if some restaurant owners want to provide that service I think they should be allowed to.
I remember when my nephew was dealing with a "gag reflex" issue. We were at a Chinese resturant when he staryed to gag and throw up. My brother in law picked him up as he sprayed the entire table with projectile vomit. We left a big tip.
Out at a resturant again, the child at the table next to us was clearly being defiant to his parents. The father removed the child to the foyer, where he doled out some quick appropriate corpral punishment. Problem solved. Except for the table on the other side that was agast at the "child abuse" they had just witnessed.
It may be best to keep kids at home, lest you be accused of abuse.
Recently, I presented a slide show in our church's fellowship hall of a week long family camp we attended last month. I spent over 30 hours preparing the presentation attended by about 50 people including kids.
About 1/4 the way through the slides, kids around 6 and younger had enough of the photos (of themselves and their families) and began running through the room, yelling, jumping up and down on the stage and chasing each other, having a great time! I used a microphone to comment on some of the photos but was drowned out by the noise level. I watched and listened in amazement to the increasing mass chaos and kept wondering when the parents would intervene. They didn't. I was amazed how unruly the event became and couldn't wait for the ending. A few adults later told me they were shocked the parents did nothing to reign in their kids.
This seems to be a trend I'm seeing in public more frequently in movie theaters and malls. Parents unwilling to teach this isn't a playground where your supposed to yell at the top of your lungs.
Kids are supposed to be loud when playing and chasing each other, only in the right environment.
We can't blame the kids, they're just being kids. Come on moms and dads.
We have been blessed to have 12 children. My husband and I have chosen to be "strict" in their upbringing. Our children are talked to about the fact that not a one of them is the center of the universe. However, they are also told how the Lord has made no mistake in creating them and placing them into this world. A balance is required in raising children. Too often, many modern parents will meet a child's wants, but will neglect his needs.
Children need boundaries and will act up when they are not sure of them. Whenever we've been out in public, at the supermarket, at a concert, or in a restaurant, we usually get comments about how well-behaved our children are. We are pleased to hear this, but to be honest, we expect good behavior and will give out consequences when our standards aren't met. There shouldn't be a place where a parent cannot take his or her child, if the parent is "parenting" and the child knows that full well. We believe we can do no less in trying to honor the Lord.
Considering how poorly behaved are many families (children and parents) I can understand the desire on the part of some businesses to seek to eliminate that negative experience for their customers. It is all a consequence of our culture turning away from God's word and disregarding His commandments and statutes.
Being "family friendly" requires a "friendly" family.
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I don't think that the issue here is whether it's nice to have children in a restaurant or not. The first issue is that this is unconstitutional. Once upon a time a business owner could put a sign in the window that read "Whites Only". Now they can't. If we condone this behavior we are agreeing that children of any age are not really people. No, no, no!!!
Secondly, you can't teach proper manners if they never go out anywhere but places they are allowed to run wild. My children were well behaved in public. They need to mix with adults and see proper behavior modeled. I agree parents are responsible for their children's behavior. The other day I was shopping and the entire store was being abused by a woman who was at a kiosk filling out a application or something while her barely two year old daughter sat in her cart literally screaming at the top of her lungs for at least a half hour (until the mother was finished and ran from the store). It was horrible...and the mother's fault. Children get tired, hungry, thirsty, bored, etc., etc. Parents have to use good parenting judgement, manners and planning. I felt so sorry for the child (and angry with the mother) all the while rushing to get out of ear shot. Let's put the responsibility on the parent. If your little one is having a difficult day then remove them, but don't let anyone rob them of the right to learn and succeed.
A better policy would be enforcing signs that read, "Rude parents will not be tolerated and will be asked to leave the store!"
That's the world for you. What's more unfortunate is that many (most) churches fracture families with their junior church, mandatory nursery policy, youth group mentality. Keeping families together is just about impossible.
I used to think my friends were very rude when they asked the waitress not seat them near children. Over the years, my opinion has changed. Parents no longer teach their children how to behave in a public place. If one of my children acted out, they would be taken by the hand or carried out to the car and their behavior "was discussed". They didn't come back in with us till they were finished crying and could behave themselves. (No we didn't leave them alone in the car.)
What made me change my mind? One night my adult son and I were having dinner out. We were seated next to a family complete with 4 children, 2 sets of parents, and grandparents. One child was acting like a spoiled brat and nothing was right. That child finally got themselves under control, when the younger child was upset by something. This child got himself so upset that he ended up vomiting all over their table and ours. Needless to say, our meal was over. We left immediately, complained to the cashier and now won't sit near little children in a restaurant!
Where are these child free restaurants?? As a busy stay at home mom with 3 little ones it is such a pleasure to get a quiet evening away with my husband. It is a luxury, financially and with finding extra time. It it a rare treat. It has happened that we have been serenaded at a restaurant by someones howling child, wishing we would have just stayed at home.
It seems that establishments are noticing that parents and caregivers are struggling to find that balance between caring for thier children and for themselves. Some grocery stores have implemented a daycare type location for parents to drop thier busy little ones for an hour while they get some shopping done. It is a treat indeed!
There is no doubt in my mind that "Children are a gift from God." I should know, I hsve been blessed with six of them. This movement is a result of parents not partenting their children and teaching them respect and appropriate behavior. They let their children run wild in stores and talk in movie theaters. They tolerate their kids throwing food at home and behaving like wildmen around the dinner/lunch table at home. This behavior is then carried over into the public arena too. I am an expert on this too because I am a teacher and get to witness this behavior regularly at school.
If you love your children parent them according to the Word and raise them with respect and reverence. Use common sense and don't take your three year old to a fancy resaurant for a fancy dinner with your wife. Get a baby sitter and spend some time just the two of you. Your child is NOT the center of your life. God is first, then the marriage and then the family. Keep it in that order and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
When I hear of the extremes our culture is embracing, sometimes I wonder if the human race has suffered a mutation in its natural instinct to survive that now has somehow turned into a desire for extinction! As a realtor in the State of Florida, I see this trend towards "childlessness" evidenced in Active 55 communities and luxury retirement centers. There are other communities that cater to young adults that are definitely child-unfriendly.
I think it's sad -- and could be an indicator that our society really is post-modern! For the couples who decide that they are too busy or too self-absorbed or too career-oriented to "bother" with having children, I wonder who will come visit them, care for them, or involve them in activities when they are too old and infirm to live independently and they find themselves in a nursing home!
Self-centeredness is a cruel taskmaster: it may reap temporary pleasures - but those are fleeting. One day - barring accidents and unscheduled serious illness, we can expect to grow old --- Yuck! But true, nonetheless.
My in-laws were wonderful parents and fabulous grandparents. They were natural parents of 12 children. My father-in-law lived to be 82 and we lost my mother-in-law recently at 93. In spite of illnesses that sometimes accompany "getting older", they led a vibrant and full life and were loved and freely shared their love with others for their entire lives.
Nursing homes are full of older folks - many of whom are lonely beyond belief, forgotten or left alone by family - cared for by either dedicated, loving strangers or by folks who are overworked and struggling just to take home a paycheck. Seldom do you find children visitng there, but I've noticed that when a child is present, smiles appear on almost every face, feeble elder arms eagerly reach forward for a hug or a little bit of attention from the child.
I think it's incredibly sad for folks who chose to have a lonely, solitary end-of-life exisitence. Funny, when you're young and living in the fast lane, pursuing and enjoying being foot-loose and fancy-free, you just don't see the end result.
I'm so happy for each of my 3 wonderful adult children. I'm thrilled they all chose Godly spouses and have sought to rear Godly children, 11 grandchildren for us, so far. It's one of life's greatest joys to see a grandchild marry a godly bride and start his own family. I would never trade these joys for anything I may have "missed" because I was a wife and mother.
Are kids noisy? Sometimes! Do they sometimes create a scene? Sometimes! Do they sometimes embarrass you or need to be corrected? Certainly! But I submit that each of us was once a child - each of us were sometimes noisy, created a scene - at least once, embarrassed our parents, and needed correction. Someone gave us room to grow up.
Children are not only our future, they are also our present! And they keep us "real"! With children, what you see is what you get! (Don't expect that 5-yr old to tell you that you look thin if you aren't, or that Uncle Harry is sweet if he's a cranky old man)!. Don't expect that your doorknobs will always be clean and your house will always be ready to photograph for Better Homes and Gardens. But if you love unconditionally, expect that love to come back to you --- sometimes with sticky little fingers and grubby little faces snuggled against your shoulder. I wouldn't trade those times for all the luxury retirement living or world cruises or fabulous first-class, (child-free) travel in the world!
How about you?
Its about time they have public places that adults can enjoy en evening out without "ill behaved" parents... think about it... have you ever noticed that mid-behaved children, more often than not come from ill-behaved parents? you know the once, they make more of a fuss, then the child does? I adore my children, I have one in college (girl) & a H.S senior (boy), both were great in public places (we often practiced at home how to act in public, which should be how they act at home).
Did they have off days, sure - but not where the public had to listen to it or deal with it. I agree there should be places that ADULTS only can enjoy themselves, w/o out having to listen to someone else's childrens & their "parents"..... its funny, my own children felt that way when they were young and more so even today....I always had people compliment how well behaved & polite my kids were when they were little and still do today - learing to respect those around you with your actions speaks volumes.
The definition of irony
We put our kids in nursery during church, send them to children's church after the "worship" time, hire sitters so that we can go to small group, have "crying" rooms in the back of church.
Now we complain when the world wants us to leave a screaming kid at home from a white table cloth resturant. Thats why God invented Chuckie Cheese and McDonalds
In this culture of so called tolerance and diversity we can't tolerate children.
HMM It is just emphasizing the lie of this concept of tolerance. It really is just a concept that doesn't work because there is no moral boundries to it. So we make up our own rules
based on personal preferences.
Unfortunately this is the result as the manager of that restaurant indicated when interviewed that some parents just don't "get it". My parents would have been mortified and taken us out of a public place if we behaved like I've seen more and more children behave in restaurants. There's no respect for other 's time, space or property. I recently went to a very nice restaurant with my husband near Yosemite as we celebrated 29 year anniversary and a much need vacation. There were 3 young families eating together with 2 -3 kids each all under 8 years old. It wasn't bad when they were eating, but after the kids were finished, the parents continued with another bottle of wine and the kids just went wild, chasing each other the around the table that was in the middle of the restaurant screaming, then running out the door and back in. It was worse than Chuck E Cheese. The parents could not have been oblivious to the distraction and dirty looks given by other patrons, who couldn't even hear their party across from them. They unapologetically CHOSE not to be considerate and settle their children, take them elsewhere or move their own party to a location that would not ruin the meals for the 15 other groups in the restaurant,
Children never bothered me growing up or raising my own family because as a society parents and children had better manners. They were considerate of others. I don't fault the children. They do what they're taught. I fault the parents.
As a result of this and other 'parents out of control situations' I've observed more and more, yes, I believe there should be times and places where people can go to have a nice, quite, peaceful dinner to enjoy the company of others and nurture their own relationships.
Jim,
Allow me to be kind but straight forward.
We have one daughter who has been happily married for 19 years (plus three grandchildren). We also had a baby who left us for Heaven at age 16 months. So, this was an issue once or twice, then like magic, our girls were darlings.![]()
Back in the 1970s, my wife and I agreed to a strict policy that we will not allow our selfish child
to disturb others in a 3 star eating establishment. No exceptions. If you cannot behave yourself and act like a young man or a young lady, then we will visit the restroom for further clarification (KWIM?).
I say selfish becasue that is how children act when they do not get there way.
Adults can be selfish but exploit that with different types of anger. We had the same behavior rule in evening church starting at age 3. Sit still for the 1 hour service or we will visit the restroom.
Children really want discipline ( I believe your predecessor wrote about that once or twice)
Now here we are 35 years later and parents let their kids set the standard at the expense of others not being able to enjoy their meal.
Now in a family restaurant or fast food environment, the rules can be relaxed. The problem is, kids do not know the difference. School teachers are finding that the school lunch hour is the most disruptive time of the day.
This is because parents don't teach good manners, good social graces or common sense.
So that is why commercial establishments have had enough.
Now that we are empty nesters, we enjoy an evening meal at a nice quiet restaurant. We do not enjoy a child interfering with our conversation or the nice surroundings. We work hard and pay good money for the pleasure to eat peacefully. Yes, Psalm 123:7 says love children and bless them, etc. But there is a lot more scripture that commands discipline for being disrespectful and disobedient. At our age, we love kids, just not in our face.
By the way, since I cannot rebuke parents for misbehaving children, I make it a habit to speak to parents whose children are quite, polite and have good manners. I try to do this affirmation in front of the entire family.
I do not think the trend is that society does not tolerate children as much as in years past. I think the trend is twofold: 1. Parents do not teach their children to listen to and respect them and other adults. 2. Parents take young children to places that are inappropriate for them and then get frustrated when the children act their age.
These situations make the people around them uncomfortable and disappointed in what they planned to be a quiet or civilized event.
I thought I would be the only one who felt this way, but I too agree with certain places being child-free. Yes, children are a blessing from the Lord, but so are date nights with your spouse! Like Darlene said, parents these days are abdicating their responsibilities and are raising little monsters. With the rising cost of everything, who wants to spend their hard-earned money listening to ill-behaved children screaming and terrible parents exhibiting their lack of parenting skills? When my children don't behave, we leave, and then they don't go anywhere for a long, long time. And that's a big deal to them because they're homeschooled, so it's not like they leave everyday to go to school.
Don't think for a minute that these trouble makers are like yourself, trying to do their best with a cranky child, and actually caring about the disruption they're causing. Ha! I waited tables for many years. Trust me. These people simply do. not. care. how their children behave as long as THEY are not bothered.
So let's hope both parent and child will get experience in a public setting and be reformed? It's not like these people would take any helpful advice without flinging profanities. It's not like good parenting skills will "rub off" on them. It's not like a lightbulb will suddenly turn on in their heads. No. All that will happen is that everyone around them will be angry that they wasted their money and they'll think twice before doing it again. Aaand there you have the desperate companies trying to keep their customers coming back.
Two of the most precious sounds to me are babies crying and dogs barking. Both can be annoying as well, but given the choice to have too much or too little/not all of the above--I choose the blessing from God of babies and dogs.
Some people are not good at controlling their kids (or pets). But I find the more general problem is that too many people are so self-centered that they do not want to be bothered by children, animals, or the disabled--anyone or anything that is inconvenient for them.
Thanks be to God that His Son loved us so much to be inconvenienced by the cross. Jesus also loved children and made it cfear that such is the kingdom of God.
We should follow Jesus's example and love children. We should never put convenience ahead of love.
This situation is due to several separate facts:
Some people do not value children, especially if they infringe on them in any way
Some parents do a poor job of caring for their children and taking them to appropriate places at appropriate times, or disciplining those that are toddlers
I am a parent of two and remember those early years when children can have a "meltdown". Parents should not take babies to fancy restaurants, but by the same token they are a blessing and their challenges should be tolerated at a fast food restaurant or in an airplane.
Too often our society believes those who are not productive (babies, elderly) are not valuable. God says otherwise. There are plenty of ways to enjoy your children (or other people's children) without becoming bothered by either side of this controversy.
You took the words out of my mouth. I would have phrased it less eloquently, referring to parents who try to be their kids' friends and let them act like little monsters. My husband and I chose not to have kids. What gets me is parents who look at childless couples like us and proclaim we don't have the right to any opinion regarding children. Hello? I don't have to have kids to know when I see one misbehaving and making everyone around him miserable.
This is true it is a sad commentary on our society.
I have walked into a few to many public places and have had to listen to children that have been put on cruise or ignored by there parents I'm especially irritated at the movie theater when the language coming out of the children is way worse than the movie we may be watching. If you say anything you are often told to mind your own business. I came from a different time I'm 60 now and I love to watch little and big kids when they act with respect of those around them.
I think it is very sad for young couples not to be able to take their children out to eat
with them. I think the parents should take the child out of the restaurant if he/she
starts throwing fits or screaming. They have to learn to behave properly and they learn
this by experiencing the good way to behave and the way that is not good and they
get taken out until they settle down.
I think there should be MORE family-friendly restaurants!! I have 3 now-grown children, 3 grandchildren, and one 'on-the-way,' and I want them to be welcomed where we go to eat, which is usually a special occasion of some type.
Wow, I am so surprised that so many Christians on this board are in favor of these types of policies banning children from places. I think it is a sad reflection of the value of children in our society. Children are a blessing. They are precious. I agree with Jim Daly in fully embracing Psalm 127: 3.
It's no surprise that the world doesn't see the high value of children, but it's extremely sad to hear that sentiments of many Christians saying, "I believe children are a blessing, BUT....."
Children are people with just as much value as adults- these types of policies treat them as if they are no more than a pet dog at the worst, or a nuisance at the best. Child free policies at these public places send a very negative message about children to the public.
It may be true that a private restuaraunt has a right to ban children from their place of business, but for myself, I would have no interest in going out to eat at a place with such a low view of the value of children.
I have no problem if most parents did this. Maybe Parents in MD are worse but more and more Parents don't do that they just let the Child cry, scream, and miss behave all the time. There is a reason these didn't exist 20 years ago. Parents actually diplaned there Childern and people would understand a Child having a problem because the Parents would either quit them down or remove them from the place. Now they at best tell them to stop but does nothing.
Thanks
Robert
1. If a child's ability to tollerate or behave in a public place is minimial or absent, is a parent wise to bring the child into that environment?
2. Many parents lack the skills to deal with their children. It is not the child who is the problem, but the inadequate parenting he/she has received.
3. Parents sometimes/ often do not consider the general need of others present. They need to take the child out and do what is necessary, perhaps, take the child home for a nap or to bed for the night.
4. In view of 1-3, it may be that public places are just trying to bring a little sanity into their realm. Setting a boundary because things have gotten out of hand because parents lack the wisdom necessary to deal with the issue you raise.
I have four children. I know they are a blessing from the Lord. The children in our church services have been consistently well behaved or are removed if loud. But now that I am older, it is hard to listen to children screaming anywhere. I understand children have meltdowns or power plays. Sadly few parents will take their child out of the store or restaurant which I appreciate. The hardest place for me is the grocery store. For some reason many parents let their children constantly scream, whine, or talk loudly while shopping. For these reasons, I understand not wanting small children in certain places or asking parents to take an unruly child out of the store. I think it is very possible our society is becoming more intolerate of children. Perhaps part of the problem, that I have noticed, is that unfortunately many parents don't parent their children in public when they have rowdy behavior?
I think that any business owner should have the right to restrict their clientele to older children and adults. Unlike many, my wife and I did not make a habit of bringing our toddler to nice restaurants and allow him to cry, scream, and make things unpleasant for other customers. When I was in graduate school in the early ''80s I chose an adult only apartment complex- an option no longer available due to our meddlesome US Congress.
This is an area that should not be regulated by state, local, or federal governments.
I think its a good idea to have childless restaurants. There is nothing worse than to take your child out to eat and have someone glaring or making snide remarks when your child is behaving very well for a child. The people who won't tolerate children can go to them and the rest of us who love kids can take our kids out and teach them how to use good manners when eating out without having Mr or Ms judgement right next to us.
As for airlines, I don't think its a good idea for them to ban children. Frankly, there is more wiggle room for a child in first class so they are more comfortable there. Airlines can have a child free zone if they want but it shouldn't force people willing to pay for first class to sit in coach where the kids will be kicking the seat backs and leaning over the backs of seats or fighting to be allowed to run in the aisles.
Child free shopping hours? I think the stores will find they lose money on that one. If a parent finds a certain time more convenient they are going to get groceries somewhere. The stores that let them shop at their convenience will be building customer loyalty and that does have a major impact. Word of mouth will bring more people shopping for whole families while the child free shops will be selling to a family of two. Guess who will most likely be buying more!
I have to admit that when I see children acting out in public it makes me smile. It brings back memories of my children when they were that age and I love it! I can empathize with the parents and will play peek a boo or make faces to help distract the little one from whatever is causing them to act out.
One of my favorite restaurants while traveling was a steak place that had two dining rooms... one for families and one no children allowed. Ault only section had cloth tablecloths and napkins, crystal salt/pepper shakers, flowers on the table. A lovely dining experience at a very economical price... a nice break while traveling.
Eating out is a treat. I hate it when unruly children destroy that treat for all around. I left restaurants many times with my entire meal in a box because my son was fussy. I NEVER allowed him to become disruptive. I packed up and left. Others should consider such courtesy.
As a mother of two grown children and grandmother of two wonderful boys, I believe children are a special blessing from God. With that blessing comes the responsibility of discipline. The proper discipline and training needs to take place in the home (in the proper manner). There is plenty of good Christian literature available with help on training and discipline of children. If children are trained in the home, it's much easier to control behavior in public. However, I believe children should be taught to behave properly at home as well as away. From the time our first child was two years old we ate out frequently. I count it a blessing that my children were well-behaved in restaurants. They knew from the start that misbehaving in public was not an option for them. My children were not perfect by any means, but the few times we did have a problem, we took them outside and took care of the matter privately -- without forcing other paying customers to be subjected to their crying and our trying to talk louder than the child was crying..
So, yes, there are certain times and certain places where people have the right to not be forced to listen to a child throwing a fit. If parents would take their children out when they misbehave and deal with it privately, businesses would not have to impose such rules. Discipline should be done in private anyway.
There are times when children cannot be left at home and they do get overly tired. At times we need to be a little tolerant and show grace. I certainly don't believe that unkind words and ugly looks are ever appropriate, especially for a Christian. Maybe we should just say a prayer in our heart for the parent who has to deal with the situation.
I would LOVE it if more places had days or times set aside for "no children". I have 2 older daughters (15 and 20) now, but we did not allow our kids to scream or throw fits when we were out in public or at home. Who wants to pay hard earned money to sit by a crying or screaming baby or young child during a movie or a meal? Not us and not a lot of people apparently.
Sadly, today's parents are lazy; they act as if their children are an inconvience to them, thus the obnoxious children that we've all seen in the grocery store. I do not agree w/ the banning of children, but I do believe an establishment should have the right and authority to ask the family first, to control their child, and second, to leave if it's causing that much of a disrutption because the parent(s) is neglegent in controlling their child. As in the case of infants, where crying cannnot be controlled, the parents should have the courtesy to slip out of where ever they are in consideration of others. Isn't that what (some) moms and dads do in church services? This world's attitude is becoming self-centered, easily offended, "don't correct me," but I don't believe a ban is the solution. Parents just have to step it up and do their job as parents.
As a retired military person, my family and I had the opportunity to spend tours of duty around the world. My 3 kids
were born in Germany and were educated in US civilian and military schools on several continents. In Europe, many establishments did not welcome children, therefore we did not subject the kids to an environment that did not welcome children. As they matured and were able to function acceptably in an adult venue, we introduced them to more adult situations. A basic function of the parent is to train the child to interface seamlessly with society and teach the child basic courtesies and behaviorial skills. It seems to me that many parents have not acquired the child raising skills necessary for their offspring to mesh with society. Discipline, fairly meted and skillfully taught can work wonders when raising children.
We truly loved to take our children out to eat when they were small and we love to entertain our grandchildren, but we take them to restaurants that are family friendly. Little children do not belong in an atmosphere that people pay to go for a quiet, peaceful evening. There is nothing more annoying than hearing a child screaming when you finally get away and are paying a price for that peace and quiet!
Also, if our children did misbehave-when they were too little to understand we left the restaurant and when they were older, they were disciplined and eventually knew they were to speak softly when we went to any restaurant.
I am loathe to object as to what manner someone who owns a business wishes to run it...resturants, especially succeed or fail based on how well they cater to and satisfy their general customer base.
I suspect the "childless" resturant trend is rooted in two ideas....one is the perceived need to make the customers who bring the most dollars into the establishment happy, and the other is to be a part of the fashionable trend of being "non-offensive." But mostly, I think resturanteurs who make their establishments adults only are making a business/financial decision. That said, I have to say I have been far more offended, or should I say grossed out and annoyed by the bad behavior of adults in eating establishments....such as horrific table manners, body odor, not covering mouths and noses when coughing or sneezing, trashing the rest rooms, belching and making other bodily noises in public, arguing and talking loudly, and being spectacularly rude to the waitstaff...I've seen it all. Frankly, a squalling baby or two and general kid noise is nothing compared to what adults do on occasion...What will send me fleeing from a resturant faster than someone yelling FIRE is poorly prepared food and bad service....and obnoxious adult clientiele.
Bless the little children and let them come unto me says the Lord. If someone does not receive one of these little ones then they are causing much pain to God's heart. For years my husband and I could not have our own children. It wasn't until we were entering our 25th year of marriage that we decided to do Foster to Adopt.
Yes, we did ADOPT 2 wonderful kids. They are half brother and sister. Our oldest child is a boy and he will be 13 this month. He came into our home and heart at age 4. Our youngest just turned 7 years old. She came into our heart, home and hands at 8 days old.
YES children should be allowed to be in public places with their parents. But I also agree that parents need to correct their children when they misbehave so they will less likely cause a disturbance that this artice speaks about. It is the parents role to correct behaviors not the govenment or the school system. God told us parents to "Train up a child in the way, he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.
I couldn't have said it better myself. We, too, have 3 children (all 6 and under) and don't get away often, but when we do, don't want to be surrounded by screaming kids. We don't often go out to eat as a family, as finances don't permit a family of 5 eating out regularly, but our children are expected to be well behaved when we do. We do however, choose places that are child appropriate (not necessarily fast food, but family friendly). If someone is out of control one of us will take the child outside. Unfortunately, many parents don't do this, which makes it hard for those trying to enjoy a meal. We have taught our children that it is all about the choices you make. I have many ugly looks from other parents when my 6 year old observes and says, "Mommy, they aren't making good choices," but he is often just speaking the truth.
A woman I know, whom I look up to and has really been a godly example of a wife and mother to me, once told me, if your children are out of control, then you don't need to take them in public. Now, I know there are exceptions to this, but I pretty much take this to heart. If my boys are being ugly to each other, then I wouldn't dare take them to a playdate with other children, much less to a restaurant to disturb someone else's meal.
All in all, I am sad that it has had to come to restuarants and other establishments making this a rule, but I understand why and am in no way offended by it. I love children and believe that children are a blessing, but just b/c you are a blessing doesn't mean that you should ruin someone else's evening.
Another thought I had was on the servers themeslves... I would assume that a server wouldn't get a very good tip, regardless of the service they are providing if they are serving a table who has had food thrown at them and has had to listen to screaming children from the next table over all throughout their meal.
I believe this is not so much a growing intolerance of children as much as it is a growing intolerance of bad parenting. I have a very large family, am a teacher and love children but I expect my children and my students to be behaved in public. It is frustrating being at a restaraunt or movie and not being able to enjoy because parents have not taught there children how to behave.
There are times I would welcome a child free area.
Hello, Mr. Daly.
I was not disturbed not by the idea of a restaurant restricting children. I have three children of that I spend a lot of time with and quite enjoy being with them and being their parent. That isn't diminished at all by the fact that going someplace that is adults only is sometimes appealing. I would be shocked if marketers abandoned children. There's too much money in it for businesses. So, slow down your train of thought. I doubt that we will ever return to the days of "children should be seen and not heard."
Sincerely,
Bobbie W
Yes, children truly are a blessing from the Lord. However, we don't expect a nursery in a church to be stone quiet do we ???? Do we expect a child's class (wherever that may be) to be silent, as if it were a college math class??? No, a course not. Therefore, there are resturants that should have the right (they own them) to not allow children and/or babies.
Being able to go out on a date with my husband to a nice resturant and have to put with a tantruming child, whose parents will not remove the child or a crying baby (normal) is wrong. This is not appripro for a resturant, unless you are at McDonalds, or Burger King, or the like. So parents, of little ones, give us all a break, and as we do not require babies and kids to act UNnormal in THEIR normal habitat (nursery, home, school, etc...), don't ruin a lovely dinner or brunch or lunch of a couple or adult friends, but putting kidlet's in NON-age appropriate settings.
What about a fine, say 20% automatic gratuity added on their bill for out of control children/loud children? That way, children aren't being banned, and parents have the choice if they want to go to the restaurant. It would be kinda like how restaurants add the gratuity in for large parties?
This might solve the problems..
I agree with Susan about getting to the root of teaching kids.I did not take my daughter to a restaurant until she was old enough to make it a learning experience. She was 4 and I took her to lunch at Pargo's for the purpose of teching her how to behave there. I was very intentional trying to explain everything about menus, ordering, waitresses, how to ask for what you need, all the elements of eating out. She did well and since it was relatively slow time of day and quiet, she was to focus on me and the learning experience. We had fun and I was very gratified at the end when the only other couple in the place commented on what a good job she had done. That really reinforced to her that others notice.
I am delighted to know there are child free places! Adults need them and kids need something special to look forward to for when they are older. Not everything should be available to you from the very beginning of one's life. Especially when it means ruining someone else's evening out.
My husband and I have raised three beautiful children, now have 4 grandchildren and 2 great grand children. I believe the problem with children in restaurants and other public places is not the children but with the parents. The obvisous lack of discipline is seen in unruly children who can't be controled. When our children were young, if they acted up while out in public or in church or any other place....they were removed from the premises...discipline was administered (yes, we spanked them some times) and when they were ready, we returned for another try at politeness and respect for others. I find it sad that children don't know any boundaries these days and are allowed to control their parents instead of how it was meant to be. Taking children can be an enjoyable experience for everyone if discipline is involved.
I think the trend is rooted in the fact that parents do not (or cannot) control their own children. My husband and I were at Red Lobster for lunch not long ago and a child sitting with his family in the booth behind my husband poked his fork on my husband's head. There was muffled laughter from the parents and then a weak "sorry". Then the child was allowed to run through the restaurant yelling. This is just one example of many. So, having a "child free" option does have its appeal in a time when parents don't teach their children to respect others.
Oh come on. Has it come to this? I have raised three sons. All kids misbehave in public at one time or another. Some parents handle it well and quickly take the matter in hand. Others act like they are helpless to control their children. When a child cannot calm down in a reasonable amount of time, or in the case of a hungry baby, a parent must take the kid out of the room. If there is an economic demand for child-free restaurants, then there must be a lot of parents abdicating their parental duty. Surely the demand is not due to a large number of people who just don't want to have to look upon a child whilst they eat. This generation has really lost the parenting skills and common sense that their parents and grandparents had. If you don't think so just look how many children from toddler age up are allowed to run through the dining room in a restaurant. What we really need are restaurants that don't allow stupid parents. Hope I haven't been unclear.
I would hate to see certain restaurants become a place where I cannot take our three well behaved children. We would pay the price for those parents who will not discipline their children, nor teach them how to behave in public. Don't blame the kids for misbehaving, but blame the adults for failing to parent. Usually a child loaded with sugar, juice, sodas is very likely to misbehave. And yes, when those usually-well-behaved children misbehave, just because they are children (not b/c they are loaded with caffeine and sugar), it should be the responsible parent that takes them out of the restaurant and takes them for a short walk or talk.
Just today I took my 8yr. old daughter to a hair salon for a haircut. I also brought my 6yr and 3yr old boys with me. While waiting for our appointment the salon owner approached me and mentioned how well behaved my children were. I had brought something for them to read and play with. She asked for my advise on how to address parents who bring in their children and let them roam around the salon, climbing on the empty chairs, and not being disciplined by the mothers who come in to have their hair colored. Afraid to lose the clients, she is struggling with posting a sign that addresses the problem without offending the parents.
This problem is only going to increase as long as parents are not willing in love to teach and discipline their children.
I agree there are times when children are not appropriate (R & some PG-13 movies) but when our children were born we took them with us almost everywhere. When we went to nice places we used it as teaching tools. Our children were taught how to behave in those venues with politeness and poise. Unfortunately these days parents don't do that.
A business belongs to its owner. Free will and the freedom this country was founded on give them the right to run it as they see fit and live with the consequences, good or bad. In a similar way, children are the responsibility of their parents. Unfortunately, we all have to live with the consequences of their child-raising decisions.
It truly is a comment on our downhill society. Many responses above center on the lack of respect and discipline taught to children these days, and they couldn't be more right. The self-centeredness and refusal to take responsibility that caused the problem to begin with are also passed to the children, making it an endless circle. A very sad endless circle.
I also have mixed feelings. I am the mother of two well behaved girls, ummmm, most of the time. But no matter how well behaved, they too have caused a scene or two when they were young. I've seen many adults create a scene or two as well. However, if we were unable to calm our child, we would always take them outside or to the car for a time out or cooling off time. I agree that "no kid" places may be creating a society that is ati-children. Even as much as I don't agree, I don't think the government should intervene and create some law to force restaurant and grocery stores to allow kids. I believe that the power lays in the consumers hands. If you don't like it, don't shop there or support them. If I'm wrong, I guess I will be finding a permanent place to shop and eat. I want to bring up one important thing though. WHAT ABOUT CHILDLESS CHURCHES? WHAT YOU MAY ASK? Maybe your church is different, but our church is a pretty large congregation in Plano, TX and our policy is if your child even makes a peep or cry, you can be sure there will be an usher waiting to show you to the cry room. Really? Our children are growing up without seeing their parents enter into worship because they are catered to at such an early age with their own services. Sure the cry room is equipped with a speaker so you can hear the service, but the last thing a crying mother wants to do is be shoved into a dimly lit cry room and feel like she and her child are unwanted. After becoming a mother, I looked forward every week to church and getting out and being around others. I craved social interaction after a week of being at home. Instead of church being a thing I looked forward to, I would constantly worry about the baby crying and being asked to leave the service. How humiliating. The worst part is the look of relief on all the other members’ faces as you walk out. In a society that is constantly multi tasking and listening to multiple devices at once, we are to believe that we can't possible learn to tune out or hear the service despite a whimpering child? From talking to friends and attending other churches, I know this is a common practice in churches today. Unfortunately, I think the problem is a little closer to home than we care to admit.
I BELIEVE IT'S A GROWING INTOLERANCE TOWARD CHILDREN. IT'S WHERE THIS WORLD IS HEADED. THE FAMILY UNIT IS LOOKED DOWN UPON. YOUR E MAIL
IS CONFIRMING IT THIS VERY NIGHT. JUST A FEW HOURS AGO AFTER WE GOT OUT OF BIBLE STUDY AT CHURCH I TOOK MYSELF, MY 2 GIRLS AND 2 MORE
GIRLS FROM CHURCH OUT FOR PIZZA. WE'VE BEEN TO THIS PIZZA PLACE BEFORE, NOTHING FANCY AT ALL, BUT EXCELLENT PIZZA. I DON'T KNOW IF THIS LADY IS THE OWNER OR A WAITRESS THAT HAS BEEN THERE FOREVER. ANYWAY, WHEN WE ENTER SHE ASKS IF SHE CAN HELP US, MYSELF AND 4 GIRLS UNDER 12 YEARS OF AGE. I SAID WE WOULD LIKE A BOOTH. SHE SAYS SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANY. SO I SAY WE CAN SIT HERE BY THE ENTRANCE AND PULL UP AN EXTRA CHAIR. SHE SAYS NO, YOU WILL BE IN THE WAY THERE. SO AFTER WAITING 5 MINS. SHE SAYS YOU CAN SIT IN 2 SEPARATE TABLES IN THE BAR AREA. AFTER I SIT DOWN AND THE GIRLS GO TO WASH UP, SHE SAYS THERE'S NO RUNNING OR SCREAMING ALOUD BECAUSE SHE COULD DROP A PIZZA ON SOME ONE AND CUSTOMERS DON'T LIKE NOISY CHILDREN. IN SO MANY WORDS I DID NOT FEEL WELCOMED AT ALL. SO I GET UP
TO USE THE REST ROOM AND WALK TO THE SECOND ROOM WHERE THE TABLES AND BOOTHS ARE-AND LOW AND BEHOLD THERE IS AN EMPTY BOOTH.
SHE TOTALLY LIED TO ME, JUST BECAUSE I HAD 4 YOUNG GIRLS WITH ME. HOW RUDE!! PTL THOUGH, I JUST POLITELY GOT THE GIRLS AND WALKED OUT
AND SAID TO HER, SORRY TO INCONVIENCE YOU. AFTER I WALKED OUT I WAS SOMEWHAT UPSET BECAUSE I FELT DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BECAUSE I HAD KIDS WITH ME. WE DROVE TO STEAK AND SHAKE DOWN THE ROAD AND ENJOYED AN EXCELLENT MEAL WITH EXCELLENT SERVICE- DEFINITELY A KID FRIENDLY RESTAURANT!! I WILL NEVER GO BACK TO THAT PIZZA PLACE AGAIN EVEN IF THEIR PIZZA IS GOOD, IT'S THE PRINCIPLE. THANKS AGAIN FOR
JUSTIFYING MY THOUGHTS THIS EVENING. GOD BLESS YOU ALL AND THANKS A MILLION FOR YOUR WEBSITE. I AM A SINGLE MOTHER AND YOU HELP ME
IN MORE WAYS THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW. THANKS SOO MUCH!!!! MARY B.
I do not think the childless restuarants is positive idea. It reminds me of the childless housing areas. It contributes to the anti-family feelings that are all around us now (in film, some housing areas, and even schools).
I grew up in a large family and there were always children around. When I go out in public, I expect to see anyone and everyone. Crying infants/children don't bother me, especially if they are being taken care of warmly & lovingly, by their Mom or Dad. That's the way life is. If you don't want to be around children (maybe because your not used to it?) then you can go home to the privacy of your own home.
I don't believe there should be any law that says owners have to allow children into their establishments, but I do hope it does not start a new trend. There are already many things that are helping to destroy family life, living together, divorce, the "push" for gay marriage, etc. We need to work towards strengthening familes in every way we can.
I think it is fine to have restaurants who want to cater to adults. I like a quiet place to eat and talk if I am acutally going out to have a good time and to eat and to talk.
i didn't take my three children out a lot when they were small. What would have been the point? The food isn't that wonderful. The environment isn't that wonderful. One can learn manners and behavior at home, practicing in a restaurant is not necessary in my opinion. About nine or ten years of age is plenty soon. Speaking about disruptive restaurant settings, I have been intimidated and felt uncomfortable around high and drinking male teenagers hanging out and talking trash at an informal food place.
Nope, I say keep the kids at home and let them enjoy their meal, their parents, their environment, and their siblings.
There are some great thoughts in this blog. Personally, I love seeing parents training their children in church, while many churches have become segragated with little or no interaction with children in adult services.. I also agree with the thought of our form of culture where children are not allowed in bars, strip clubs, theaters where un-family friendly movies are shown etc.. I love seeing parents training their children in grocery stores by drawing them into the selection process. I feel badly for children who have parents who don't know the art of raising up a child in the way that he or she should go. I had to spend much time in the Bible for instruction on how to be a proper dad, husband and neighbor.
Sometines the training includes the parent being sensitive to the setting and capitalizing by removing the child with love so the child experiences restriction and will learn to act appropriately.
First off, let me say that I have three children. I have absolutely no problem with establishments deciding not to allow children in their facilities. There are times when I go out that I get tired of having to listen to kids who are acting up and completely undisciplined by their parents. So having some places for adults only is a great idea. As someone else pointed out, if too many places go child free, other people will open up businesses that will allow children and make a profit off it.
Ultimately I think the reason places are going child free is because in society as a whole people are not parenting their children. Part of that may be because of the nanny state that so many states are moving towards when it comes to disciplining children. It wasn't that long ago that if you had to take your child out behind the wood shed and spank them, you could and it was an effective deterrent for children to behave. Now before everyone goes ballistic here, that does not mean that you can abuse children. But nowadays you can be arrested for child abuse for spanking and lose your children. Children know that and know that all they have to do is tell someone and they can get their parents in trouble. We need to get back to where we can truly discipline our kids, even with spankings, without having to be afraid of the state coming in and arresting us or taking the children away.
That being said there are ways without spanking that can be effective. I think spankings need to be limited to when they do something that could cause serious injury to themselves or someone else or they just simply continue to misbehave or ignore other forms of discipline repeatedly. For my own children, one of the most effective ways to get them to behave in public was if one of them acted up or was not listening, we packed everyone back up in the car, went home, dropped the trouble maker off and either grandpa, his wife, or someone would stay with the trouble maker while the other two got to go back out and have fun. The trouble maker got to sit at home in their room. Doesn't take losing out on too many outings for kids to get the message.
I feel that extending ourselves to help others is God's request of us all. How about a printed sheet giving helpful hints to anyone coming in to eat.
1. If a child has one favorite soft toy or book, it can help to occupy that child until the food comes. Parents should bring finger foods for the very young who can't take the pains in the tummy. For a slightly older childer, parental agreement that one or the other will excort the child out to the car, until the food arrives at the table. For the child that has developed a flu or whatever, asking for take-home boxes would relieve others of the meal disturbance, Leaving the restaurant when it becomes obvious that the child is not going to cooperate would serve as a lesson the a demanding child that this is obviously not to be a nice family night out. Many parents today have not learned what their options are in these situations, what to do to prepare for the "what ifs....." or how to distract. Out of frustration or embarrassment the parents that have no backup plans or ideas can often end up making the situation worse by being too loud or physical themselves toward the child. Children, as you have said, can be very unpredictable, but helping the child feel heard and listening for the child's heart on a regular basis can help children learn to express themselves in more socially acceptable ways and trust the solutions of the parents. The loss of the money for a spoiled night out can become a very good investment in wise handling of this kind of "emergency" decisions. Pray each day "God be with us today, that we may love each other as You would have us love and walk with us through each new struggle of life.
I think there are 2 aspects to this:
1. Part of what is going on may come from the fact that there are so many children that are not taught to behave at all; maybe there would not be so many places going child free if there were more well-behaved children...it seems that parenting skills have gone out the window.
2. With that being said, even the best of kids have meltdowns and can be loud; having a childfree zone could be a pleasant escape.
(On a side note, I am a doctor and when I come into the exam room and find drawers open, kids spinning around on the doctors seat or medical supplies being used as toys, it makes me want to have a 'no kids in the exam room with mommy' policy. What happened to teaching kids respect?)
Well, I think this is disgusting and represents how devalued the family is in the US. But I am not surprised.
In fact, my family has been looking for a church, and we visited a local mega church one Sunday. The "greeter" informed me that my infant was not welcome in the sanctuary and that in fact no children under 2 were welcome in the sanctuary and I was to leave my (happy, content, smilling and cooing infant) in the care of people I have never seen or met before on the other end and down stairs from the santuary.
I could hardly stop laughing when we received a "welcome letter" touting how Biblical said church is and how they base all their decisions on Scripture. Very sad. They are completely clueless.
I have absolutely nothing against children, as I had four of my own. I regularly sit in church and hear children screaming around me and usually am not bothered by the sounds (unless the parent permits it to go on too long).
I suppose that the "trend" towards childless restaurants and other establishments reflects our society's impatience and/or intolerance of children and child-raising. However, previous child-friendly generations had ways of restricting/hiding/controlling children, too. Remember the phrase, "Children should be seen and not heard," for example. Or the practice of having children eat separately from the adults, not being allowed to be present when their parents were entertaining guests, etc.
Part of the problem is that these days children are taken everywhere by unthinking adults, and when the children cause disruption everybody suffers. Perhaps it would improve things if adults knew that they couldn't just haul their little darlings along wherever they go.
Many parents don't know how to discipline their kids anymore, it seems. There's nothing more irritating to me than watching an inept parent with a noisy/obnoxious child in a public place. From the grocery store to the restaurant to church on Sunday morning, an out-of-control child and his clueless parents can be one of the most maddening things on earth. If it takes business and restaurant owners restricting kids from their establishments in order to put an end to this nonsense, more power to them.
I definitely support the restaurants right not to allow children, and would indeed support them with my dollars. I have to agree with many of the other comments here about how children are either too young to understand the situation, or unfortunately, have not been TRAINED by the parents in how to act in such a public setting. I can't begin to tell you how many meals my wife and I have had ruined in nice restaurants by the inappropriate behavior of children. Don't get me wrong, there are places we frequent where we expect to see, interact, and even get a kick out of how children behave and enjoy it... But not on our anniversary in an upscale restaurant. It's amazing to me how as a culture we have lost the respect and decency of our manners when out in public, and that goes for all of those acting like out of control children no matter how old they might be!
I do believe there may be a place for some child free areas. I would hate to plan an expensive, romantic evening and have it spoiled by a screaming child. But once you start banning children there is a risk of it becoming a problem of discriminatoion.
Unfortunaltally This is not a new issue and we should not be surprised. This has been going on in our churches for years. We personally, are having a difficult time finding a chruch that does not segreagte the ages every Sunday. It is crazy that some kids/adults go off to college having never attended a regular service, having spent all their church years in "age appropriate" ministries. Don't get me wrong I love age approprite activies but not when they take away from a Sunday morning family time. You know if we all took our kids into church with us and showed them they are capable of sitting quitely for an hour or so the community at large may just take notice and not be so offend by our children.
Certainly children are a blessing. However, many parents of today forget what else is written in the bible: educate your child.
I fully support the decisions of the restaurants, shops and airline! This is the answer to parents who can not bring up their children
so that they would have manners: just accept your freedom ends where mine starts! Do not disturb me! I do not pay a first class ticket
to be disturbed the whole flight.
Sorry! But yes, I do agree with the others.
I'm one who desires grandchildren very much & my heart grows weary waiting for the some day talk. However I've also noted in public places how young children seemingly are so very undisciplined. Too many times in Walmart young children are allowed to screem throughout the whole store. I feel what we allow them to do as parents is what they will do. I say to parents where have you set up your limits & why are you allowing them to behave this way. I'm sorry but I see this as a growing trend to let, allow, & not discipline todays generation.
The rise of adults only businesses is a reflection on the way parents today allow their children to behave in public. When our children (now 30, 27 and 25) were little, if we took them to a restaurant, we were mindful and respectful of their behavior and the impact of loud or crying children on those around us. We took them outside if they were misbehaving. When is the last time you've seen a young parent do that? We've sat through temper tantrums that parents simply ignore! When we are out in restaurants and other public places, we are shocked at the lack of oversight and discipline exhibited by so many young parents. It is almost as if their children are invisible --- they do not seem to see or hear anything their children are doing. What, for example, happened to the directive to children to "use your indoor voice"? They are allowed to talk loudly, scream, do whatever they wish to get attention. Those of us that do not wish to have our evening out spoiled by rowdy, loud children should have options. It has nothing to do with valuing children (we're looking forward to the birth of our first grandchild) and everything to do with children learning respectful behavior and parents exhibiting authority. I am all in favor of adults only venues and would definitely support them.
Funny I read this email this morning, since last night my wife and went to eat at a local restaurant. I am in the military and there are many young families here, as you can imagine. As we were entering there were two young boys standing near the door, an older couple was leaving and the lady was quite short with them, the boys weren't in the way but she seemed to be very annoyed. She even called them "little monsters"! Should the children have been more controlled by their mothers? Probably, but since the fathers were probably deployed and the mothers had their hands full, I felt like they deserved a little slack, so to speak. I felt sorry for the lady who was so preturbed witht he kids. Since my wife and I are empty nesters, I always like to see families out, and wish I could relive the days when our boys were that age.
My husband & I had 4 kids, traveled with them and took them out to dinner. That is how they learn appropriate behavior. There are certain restaurants I would not have taken my kids because they were elegant places that kids should not go because for one thing, the kids would be completely bored and of course act out. For the most part, people take their kids to kid friendly places and go as a couple to the not so kid friendly restaurants. I don't think kids should be banned from anywhere, but parents definitely need to understand the limits. As far as airplanes go, if a parent can afford a first class ticket, then infants should be allowed. There is more space there to make the child comfortable. I have way more problems with the 4-5 year old child kicking the back of my seat the whole time than I do a crying infant.
The banning of children points to two disturbing trends. Children are not being taught how to behave in public places. Manners are unimportant, causing those without children to not want to be around them. Also, many adults are choosing to be "childless" because children are viewed as an inconvenience and a nuisance. Points to the liberal viewpoint that children are a burden and each family should be limited in size.
OBVIOUSLY if a restaurant is closing its doors to children, there is a problem in that restaurant with bad behavior. They have a right to please their usual customers with this new requirement. There is no danger whatsoever that this will become the norm.
Children don't belong in every venue.( An elaborate wedding, a casino, a nightclub, a 5 star restaurant in the evening hours, certain plays and concerts, business conferences, black tie affairs of any kind, etc..,,)
It is not anti child to exclude them from these events. If your child behaves, enjoy them and bring them to many places, but they still don't need access to every place. Why not try lunch out in a better restaurant and leave the dinner hours to adults?
Most importantly, if you want young couples to embrace family life, then don't expose them to the worst in children's behavior. In other words, if you yourself look disheveled, harried and overtired while you wrangle your unruly brood around town, don't expect them to jump for joy at the idea of giving up their pleasant lifestyle for the apparent drudgery of family life. Make a good example of yourselves to others by wisely choosing your public outings. Dress nicely, look happy, go out at the time of day when kids are rested and not half starving. Everyone will benefit.
As a mother of 4 children and Granny to one, I have allot of experience with children in restaurants. As stated above, children are unpredictable.
But, children can be trained to behave in public. A wise parent would not take a small child to an expensive eatery. If there are white table clothes and candles it is a sure bet there is not a toddler menu. There are many "family" restaurants that are able to accommodate children and are prepared with color books , sippy cups and free cookies!
I think the real issue is parents are not training their children to follow social codes of conduct. People are tired of "tolerating" miserable little brats. When I traveled via airlines, when my children were young, I was often told how well behaved my children were. To teach a child to say please and thankyou seems to have gone by the wayside. I have found that a polite child receives praise from flight attendants , we have even had a pilot come to us and give us "wings" as a gift for good behavior. Now, my children are not perfect by any means, but simple politeness goes a very long way.
"Modern" parents who do not discipline their children are reaping their reward and the rest of us are suffering the consequences.
I do not believe there is a distain for children, just unruly ones.
I believe that this issue stems more from a lack of discipline rather than an intolerance for kids. I have grown up watching how differently my cousins were raised from me and my sibilings. We were spanked and grounded and turned out fine. If anything, we learned to respect our parents and others around us. My cousins, on the other hand, received time out (which they always got up from and were never punished) or my aunts and uncles would "talk" to them. Over time, I began to realize that my cousins knew that they could get away with almost anything because there really was no punishment for the behavior. They ran the show and their parents. Parents MUST START PARENTING AND DISCIPLINING their children!
It's a shame that there is a need for "childless" locations and events because of this very issue. I do understand that even well behaved children do act up at times. But when I grew up, "the look" from Dad or the threat of a spanking made me straighten up right away. A BIG thank you to my parents for disciplining me and teaching me how to behave properly and respect others.
One of my biggest annoyances was going to see my child in a PTO play and not being able to hear the play because parents wouldn't remove screaming babies. Any scream should be a moving scream towards an exit. This is in no way "anti-child". I don't really even like the idea of child-free restaurants, but I think that restaurants may need to post signs stating that screaming children should be quickly taken to a different area to quiet down. This was obvious to almost everyone 30 years ago, but quite a few (not all, but a large percentage) of today's parents didn't read the memo.
Airplanes are miserable for everyone, no matter the age. Think twice before you inflict an airplane on a small child. Sometimes, it is absolutely necessary. For this reason, I really think airlines should designate an area of the plane for parents with young children. I think they could even put a noise-reducing shield of some kind to contain the noise.
Years ago, when our four children were young, my husband and I managed to save up for a "date night" and paid a sitter so we could have dinner in a nice restaurant, undisturbed. Of course, as Agnes described, it didn't turn out that way. A couple seated near us had three loud, annoying, bratty children with them. The two pre-schoolers ran around the room, crawled beneath our table at least three times, fought and shrieked constantly, while the baby sat in a highchair and screamed non-stop. The parents ignored them and calmly conversed over their dinner. Our evening was ruined. The restaurant management should have intervened, but didn't. When we finished our dinner, my husband stopped at their table and gave the man his business card. He then said, "Please call me before you plan another evening out. I can give you the name of a trustworthy sitter, and I hope you'll call her so that you don't take these kids with you again and ruin somebody else's evening the way you've ruined ours." He walked away, and left the couple sitting there with open mouths.
I hope they got the message, but I doubt it. The problem is not with the children, the problem is with gutless parents who for whatever reason will not stand up to their kids and demand good behavior. We could take our kids anywhere, and often did, but it took consistent discipline and high expectations to mold them into "good citizens." They're all grown up today, and are kind, polite, considerate people who are now rearing their own families with the same values. I would hope that everyone would take charge of their children, and not leave that loophole where Nanny Government can jump in and assume control.
I think this is the beginning of a "slippery slope" because then they will be banning older people who are too slow or bothersome, handicapped people who require more attention etc.
Children even if at times annoying are part of life. We were all one at one time and we shouldn't stop any discomfort or annoyance that people, children, pets cause because this is called "LIFE" so live it, enjoy it and some day you'll be looking for the noises of little children when your all alone in a quiet place day in and day out.
Once, our family was at a very nice resort restaurant during vacation with our two very young children. As a guest was struggling with a very loud but severely disabled child, the manager of the restaurant was going from table to table asking if patrons were being disturbed; all the people, with or without children, were answering "no" because they realized the difficulty of dealing with this child and that the family was probably trying to enjoy a vacation also. Thankfully, because everyone had compassion for this family and they were allowed to stay. Each situation is different.
Many times though, I have witnessed parents allowing their children to "roam" about the restaurant like it was one large playroom without regard to where their child was and who they were disturbing. I am in favor of some childfree restaurants because when I go out with my husband or a girlfriend, I want to eat and chat in peace and not be interrupted by someone else's child coming to my table, which has happened numerous times, or running amok in the restaurant.
Last week we and our wheel-chair bound mother ate in a local Fudruckers. Three children, ages approximately 7, 9 and 11 were charging around, horseplaying, and nearly ran into mother. No parent around. After we were seated, the oldest boy and his siblings were pushing and shoving each other over a "game" console situated in the center of the serving area. All at once, the girl was flying through the air and landed on the floor, slid under a table, hitting her head hard. Immediately my husband verbally reprimanded the boy and went to the aid of the girl. The boy "sassed" and yelled at my husband! As I looked around, other diners were shocked at the scene, but no parent intervened. Later I saw the children at a table with a man, I suppose their father.
A baby or toddler's cry? Not a problem. Irresponsible parents with disorderly brats...NO!
I ADORE CHILDREN....HOWEVER, WHEN WE GO OUT TO EAT, NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR BABIES OR SMALL CHILDREN SCREAMING AT THE TOP OF THEIR LUNGS AND PARENTS DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT. If we go to Carabbas, Outback, Ruths Chris, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, etc..... it just ruins the meal to hear all that noise. IF PARENT WILL TAKE THE CHILD OUT UNTIL THEY CALM DOWN, THAT WOULD BE FINE...BUT THEY DON'T......THEY ARE LAZY AND THINK EVERYONE SHOULD HEAR THEM SCREAM AND TAKE OFFENSE IF YOU SAY ANYTHING.
THE RULE SHOULD BE, ALL KIDS OK, UNLESS CRYING OR SCREAMING WITHOUT IMMEDIATE INTERVENTION FOR QUIET. PLACES LIKE CHUCKIE CHEESE, MCDONALDS, ETC ARE GEARED FOR KIDS AND TODDLERS.
NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO BE EXPOSED TO CONSTANT SCREAMING WHEN OUT FOR A NICE QUIET DINNER.
MIGHT CONSIDER A KIDS AREA FOR THE PARENTS WITH THEIR CHILDREN IN A SOUND PROOF ROOM SEPARATE FROM THE REST. BABIES AND KIDS ARE AWESOME, BUT SO IS SOME DISCIPLINE. PARENTS NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS,
I am in my 50's and what I have seen change over the last 30 years in restaurants is not so much the kids behavior as it is the unwillingness (or lack of skills) of the parent to deal with the children's behavior. In the last 6 months I have been in 2 different restaurants where children were running, tackling each other, being extra loud, and even standing on tables. The parents? Sitting at their own table absorbed in conversation and oblivious to what was going on. I was about to ask for the manager to do something about the situation in one case ... but at that instant two kids fell off the table, started crying, and finally got their parent's attention. Shows why we need Focus on the Family! But if parents won't do the job then I am all in favor of the restaurant owner restricting children.
As most everyone has noted children are truly a blessing. In fact as I was driving to work this morning I was singing "Jesus Loves the Little Children". I am now a grandmother to 2 and am expecting a 3rd this month. I feel truly blessed with my own children and their children but a child-free night occasionally in any arena is nice. My only concern is that in America we tend to latch onto an idea and go full throttle; America sometimes cannot find a middle ground.
My brother was a waiter when my children were small. My husband and I noted his comments about families. He stated that many families left such a mess on the floor and were very loud with the children running about knocking into waiters and other customers that when a family came in with young children the waiter/waitresses cringed. Those comments made such an impression on us that we made sure that our children were well-behaved at home and in public. A child will act the same way in public - and more so - as they act at home.
I also note that many of the comments refer to the 'cost' and that the time out is special and in our economy anything extra such as date night can be a tug on finances so if there is not an adults only venue in your area, pick a time when the venue will be less occupied with children. Common sense is a wonderful blessing also. Children are a blessing but an adults only 'time' occasionally is nice.
Our family experienced this 30 years ago in Florida. I was shocked at the un-welcome atmosphere of this particular restaurant and others on the gulf side of the state. Retirement communities with signs at the gate saying no children. Well! Is this different than the signs of the past excluding blacks. Have we grown at all.
THEN, I decided that I was equally not interested in their company.
Thank you Susan - Beautifully expressed.
I quite agree.
It is indeed another sign of the extent of selfishness within our culture. More and more people are focusing on their personal desires, entertainment, and convenience. We need to return to a more outward focus and get back to serving God and each other. When you believe that you are your own god, then anything that requires you to adjust your attitude or plans is an aggrevating source of frustration. "It's all about me" lives on. This destructive perspective is spreading first towards the elderly, then to children, soon to anyone else who just doesn't match up with our picture of perfection. How sad.
Of course, it would be good if parents would exercise some discretion in there choice of a restaurant, etc. recognizing that babies and small children are unable to appreciate, nor appropriately operate within the perameters of a fine establishment. This comes as a difficulty for many parents, however, as our culture has largely lost the ability to distinguish between what is appropriate for adults vs children because so many parents find themselves treating their children as 'equals'. They have always been equal, but they are not the same; they require different boundries and should not be exposed to everything adults are exposed to.
I pray that God will bring our country back to a place where parents are not afraid to be parents, and children are allowed to be children.
Are "No Children" policies inhumane?
Children are natural. As humans, to remove children is unnatural. It spells the end of the human race. This "no children" mindset smacks of eugenics, the fallacy of perfect order. Tolerance for the imperfect nature of man (babies crying, kids misbahaving) is just being human. No tolerance for being human is inhumane. Is this "No Children" policy a trend towards being inhumane? More pointedly, are people who choose not to have children being inhumane?
Most people I know who have chosen not to have children are self-indulgent. Self-indulgent people are not living by God's plan. The Bible says to go forth and multiply, not to save your money to spoil yourself. And to me, therein lies the answer. If you are human, and you demand not to have children around, then you are exhibiting inhumane tendancies.
At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matt. 18:1-6)
Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence. (Matt 19:13-15)
These are the words of Christ regarding children. I didn't see an addendum that said unless the child is causing a disturbance. He who lived a perfect life has shown us the way. I find in reviewing these words that I need to be more understanding. Christ warned us of the mote/beam thing and that we are not to judge others but work on our own imperfections to become more like him. See Matt. 7:1-5, and Matt 5:48. I know that many will seek to justify various view points that are not in harmony with the teachings of the savior. I struggle with this at times also, but we are to rise above these things and not seek to justify our selves.
So totally agree! Standards of acceptable behavior (by children AND adults) in public have gone down the tubes, unfortunately. Recently was in a restaurant with my teenaged daughters and the 20-something adults at the adjacent table were using such obnoxious, loud and offensive language that I said something to the mgt. Thankfully, we were finishing up as they were just starting.
It is too bad that parents allow their children to run around at restaurants - that can be corrected. Also, if your baby/toddler is screaming, kindly take your child outside, as I did countless times when my girls were little.
Reading through the comments, I noticed one point NOT mentioned. Going out to eat is a PRIVILEGE. I have 6 children born throughout 3 decades. Our children regularly received comments on their good behavior. Of course, we rarely ate out. I am constantly amazed at the number of vehicles at restaurants every day of the week in our "struggling economy"!! Teach your children manners at the table at HOME first, then they will be a joy and blessing in public. No one is perfect and when our children were crying or too loud, we took them out of earshot to cause the least disturbance to others. Manners are doing what is KINDEST for others.
Wow, I do remember those times when we took our kids out. McDonald's might have it down pretty well.....they have that play area for just the kids! Works for us but it isn't a nice dinner place.
Just the other night, I remember that a child let out a blood curtling scream and I even jumped --- maybe because he was at the next table! It definitely takes the enjoyment out of the meal.
I think my daughter did it well when raising her kids. She gave them one chance at not being respectful of other people in the restaurant, then she would pick them up, walk outside and have a one-on-one talk with them. After they quieted down, then they came back inside.
I know there are times when both my wife and I wish others would do the same.
And, you need to be aware of the kids needs too. When thekids are done with their meal at home what happens? They go play or do they sit quietly at the table until everyone is finished? Get the idea?
I think a big factor in all this falls on the parents of the screaming child. I would be against this new trend IF parents would take the screaming child outside until the child calms down. I am a father of two awesome kids that I love with all my heart. We are fortunate that we did not have many public meltdowns. We had taught them very early that tantrums simply didn't work with us. We had to spank each of them maybe 5-6 times each in their whole life. Then they knew that was always on the table. Their bigger deterent was not liking the feeling of disconnect/disappointment from 2 parents they knew loved them with all their heart. I observed a great scene at church one Sunday. A child was having a tantrum. His mom looked at him and said in a sweet voice, "Is that the best you can do?" The child screemed louder to which the mom said, "Come on, you can do better than that." The child looked up at her, saw he wasn't getting what he wanted and stood back up and acted fine." The most brilliant parenting I had ever seen! lol!
I would not go to a restaurant that bans children. Let's tear the family apart even more by banning their children. I will boycott all restaurants that would do this. I love spending time with my child and eating together is a great way of communication about problems and victories in their lives. If I see a child crying in a restaurant, my heart goes out to the parents, but it is NOT a reason to ban children from going to the restaurant, just like banning a contagious person from seeking help at a hospital. This just really upsets me!
I thank the Lord everyday for the little one that I am raising.
I think businesses have every right to set these types of rules. If their customers approve, they won't lose any business. Otherwise, the marketplace will tell them their policy is wrong in no uncertain terms.
That being said, my wife and I always took our kids everywhere with us but we did not allow them to misbehave and interrupt others.
When you look at our society, it seems the majority of parents are very lackadaisical and laissez-faire in regards to their childrens behavior. They allow children to behave in any manner the child sees fit and the children ignore the parents begging for a change, which, to often, seems to be their only attempt at control. The kids control the parents, not the other way around.
This is what our society teaches us. Children are the center of the universe and must be allowed to develop freely without limits and surely without disciplinary action to train them to refrain from disruptive and anti-social behavior.
When I observe this type of behavior in Wal-mart, at a restaurant or at a movie, I can understand why the business would enact these rules.
One evening my husband and I were thrilled to have a sitter and actually go out for dinner, just the two of us. We chose a booth because it seemed more private. Imagine our surprise when a little head popped up from the booth next to us. The child played peek-a-boo and kept waving. This would have been cuter had we not been paying someone to watch our own children. The parents thought it was amusing and did nothing towards the situation, even after the toddler started dropping napkins into our booth. Would it be nice to have some restaurtants have kid-free sections/hours/set aside certain days? Absolutely!
This also applies to movie theaters.
I love children, I'm especially fond of my own two
. And I believe the majority of the issues stem from the parents, not the kids. We have been invited into people's homes for the evening and their own children are so ill-behaved we end up regretting accepting the invitation in the first place.
I agree that children are a blessing. That said, anyone who leaves their house today has witnessed a growing trend of not correcting children when they misbehave in public. Instead, others cringe as the wailing grows louder, sometimes due to a very tired or hungry child whose parent/parents refuse to see to the child's needs, which may be denying their own desires and taking their little one out of the business/theater/department store, etc.
Many parents today demand that their needs be satisfied at all times. When this happens, not only do innocent bystanders have their lives disrupted, but the children are ignored and often taught that screaming is the only way to get their parents' attention.
One day I witnessed a young mother whose children were so well-behaved that I stepped over to her table and complemented her. She beamed at my words.
I was brought up to behave in public. If I did not, there was a penalty. Sadly, many today do not understand that in a polite society one has to consider others as well as themselves.
In all honesty, when I had four small children, we went out very seldom, and when we did, it was WITHOUT the kids. I have joked for many years, that I would like the non-kid section please.... this was [suppose to be] my brake from listening to small voices cry and whine.
Is it another symptom of lack of charity, consideration and thinking of others?
I think it is the reaction of restaurant owners from complaints of patrons to spoiled, undisciplined children. Whenever we eat out, we get numerous complements on how well our 5 children behave, from the wait staff and other patrons. When we eat out, the most we have to remind our children is to use their inside voice, they can sometimes get to talking loudly. If a baby of mine is upset and does not calm down, I take them out in consideration of the other patrons.
I am a father of 6 children and grandfather of 13 and I consider them everyone to be a real blessing from God. They have brought, and continue to bring, my family and me great joy.
As my children were growing up we taught them how to behave and to repsect the rights of others. They knew that if they misbehaved in church or in a public place there were conaequences to those actions and for that reason they behaved. The problem today is that so many parents have bought into all this hogwash about how discipline hurts a chld's self-esteem and as result have lost the abilility and desire to control their childre.
While I would not personally endorse this practice in my own business I believe this as a private business owner every person has the right to run his or her business as they see fit. If their sustomer's don;t approve they will soon let them know as they disappear from their place of business
Its a sad reality that such measures are being taken to limit the presence of children. My simple response is, they have the right to not want kids in their establishment, and I have the right to NEVER eat, fly, or purchase any of their products and services. So long as there are "kid friendly" establishments, I will choose them over a place that is too "high & mighty" for children. In short, let them burry themselves in such an audacious policy. As long as there are children, such a policy cannot prevail and I will be sure to use my consumer rights to see that it does NOT prevail. -Mike
I have four boys under the age of 12 and we go out to dinner, shopping, etc... all the time. We have at times had to leave a public place because of bad behavior. When this happens the offending boy(s) are disciplined which hopefully leads to acceptable future behavior.
A business owner should make patrons aware (maybe by posting a sign) that anyone not following typical rules of courtesy will be asked to leave. Similar signs (i.e. no shirt, no shoes, no service) are posted in business w/out offending the majority. The business owner then has to have the courage to gracefully ask a poorly behaved person or parents of misbehaving children to leave. The embarrassment of being asked to leave hopefully will remedy future episodes. Either the parent/person won't come back or in the future they will behave in a civil manner. In short, it is bad business to exclude families w/little ones.
To me "Children are a blessing from the Lord" when they are taught to obey. Disruptive, unruly, undisciplined children are NOT a blessing! Many parents are too lazy to follow through with the discipline! They are doing their children a huge disservice! They don't realize that they are training the adults of tomorrow to be disciplined, UNDISCIPLINED, pruductive or UNPRODUCTIVE!
My husband and I rarely eat out at a restaurant, due to our funds, so when we are able to eat out at a restaurant I do not want the little bit of special time out ruined by someone's undisciplined child!
I am not talking about the McDonald's type eating places. I know they are geared for children.
I don't see the trend toward "child-free" venues as a commentary on intolerance of children, but more an intolerance of parents who just don't seem willing or able to be responsible for their child's behavior in public. I am a father of 3 kids and if we went out to a restaurant as a family and one was crying or misbehaving then that child was picked up and taken outside until they calmed down and then we came back in. There were many times I ate cold meals or my wife met me outside with my food in a "to go" box because of this, and vice versa, but my kids learned that when we said "You need to stop that or we're leaving" then that meant we were leaving!
Airlines is tricky, the air pressure makes it hard on infants and you can't "step out" so you are limited. We all understand that, just do your best to soothe the child and at least look like you care when they are making the flight miserable for everyone around you. And parents, when it comes to movies, especially PG-13 movies?!? Leave the toddlers at home with a SITTER! If you can't afford a sitter, then you can't afford the movie! Period!
If everyone would step up and take more responsibility for their children and, like someone else mentioned, teach them the proper way to act/behave in public, then this wouldn't be an issue. To say our culture is becoming intolerant of children, I think, is missing the point.
Great article. It seems like a lovely idea to ban children, but what is next: Individuals with oxygen tanks, seniors, the disabled etc. Just like drunken patrons are asked to leave, I think screaming children can be asked to be removed. Please don't judge all children for the behavior of a few. We always brought our kids out with us (all eight of them,) even to Country Clubs, where they behaved. They grew up going out, and knew what was expected of them. Even when we had a few, occasionally other patrons would ask to be moved when we walked in. As Christians life is not solely about us. How many Christian Churches expect children to be out of site during worship? Let’s welcome the children. Banning children is a bad idea.
Children are wonderful and a blessing from the Lord--I couldn't agree more. And they are unpredictable for certin. Equally unpredictable are parents! Children need to learn how to behave in public places, like restaurants, church, movies, live performances...and it doesn't happen without some coaching from the adults who bring them there. Letting children do whatever they want whenever they want causes a major distruption to others who actually would like to enjoy the event. If inconsiderate parents have created a situation where children are not welcome, that's unfortunate for the families with children who are respectful. But my guess is that the rest of the folks there will be thankful. (I raised four children and have 11 grandchildren. I wouldn't take the littlest ones to the nicest places because they are too young to behave "perfectly" in those situations. But the rest have been raised so they can be in a public place and not be a nuisance to others.)
I sympathize with parents struggling to keep youngsters under control in public places. Been there, done that. But my wife and I were careful to limit opportunities for our children to annoy other adults who, for example, may be spending good money for an enjoyable meal, or a movie, etc.. We did not try to reason with a wailing child, but removed them from the restaurant etc. until things were under control.
Many of today's parents are more permissive, or they just don't care. Honestly, I don't like listening to other peoples unrulely kids - at any age.
I think a restaurant associated with a golf center is not a place for wailing children. If specific incidents spawned the new rule, which is frequently the case, I can support the owners interest in preserving his business.
I too believe that child are a blessing from the Lord, I think due to the lack of parenting by some parents and the fact that parents take their children every where cause they think that everyone loves them as much as they do is the problem. When I was young there where places that my parents just did not take me until I was old enough to know how to behave properly in that atomsphere.
Well said! I couldn't agree with you more.
It's a disturbing trend. What's next, "codger-free" days at the grocery store? This is real intolerance.
My two girls are older now but when they were younger, my husband and I would hire a babysitter. It was very frustrating when we would go out to eat and be seated by a crying/misbehaving child. Once we asked to be moved. We cherished our alone time when our girls were young so we wanted to have a nice peaceful dinner. I can understand why some restaurants would offer childless dining. I still do not like to eat with yelling kids. Also movies, why do parents bring young kids to adult movies? They don't want to pay a babysitter so the rest of us pay the price.
I love my two girls and my young great nephews but I also like to have peace and quite when I go out to eat or a movie.
Nearly every law we have was put in place because somebody was stupid, self-centered, or needed protection from themselves. Cell phone laws because . . . seat belt laws because . . . motor cycle laws because . . .
When our kids got out of hand at a restarurant we took them outside until they calmed down and if they didn't my husband would eat and then relieve me so I could eat or we would have our waiter wrap it up "to go".
There is a price to pay for having children but the rewards far outweigh the disadvantages.
So, I agree with the others that a few exclusive restaurants should be able to have child-free times.
A relative of my daughter-in-law recently had a "child-free" wedding. If it would have been me I would not have attended.
I'll do the same with restaurants. If a restaurant I like goes child-free I will not eat there. When this practice starts hitting them in the dollar things will change.
I see the move toward child-free restaurants as partially about society's lack of love for children, but more about the whiney or screaming ones. I am a mother of six, ages 18-35, and while I believe that children are a blessing from the Lord, I've become increasingly concerned over the years about some of the trends in parenting. Children need adults to be lovingly and confidently in charge, as it gives them a sense of security. However, many parents allow their children to be the center of their home, which places an unreasonable burden on their little shoulders. This also results in unruliness in public places, creating an unpleasant environment for others. It's best to explain exactly what you expect before going into a social situation, whether it's the grocery store, restaurant, or a friend's home, as well as what consequences will happen for disobedience. At those times when the child tests the limits, swift and consistent action must be taken -- removing the him/her from the setting and administering the appropriate chastening, followed by a brief discussion of how they can do better next time, and an affirmation of your love. When, instead parents, nag, remind, threaten, and even try to bargain with the child, the behavior gets worse instead of better. This is a good opportunity to plug Dr. Dobson's book, "Dare to Discipline," which has helped countless moms and dads do their job with effectiveness and joy!
Well said Susan! I believe that you're right on target. I have two son's of my own so I can speak as a parent. It's very frustrating to see parents who basically ignore their children's misbehavior at when eating out. Movies are an even worse situation. My wife and I recently went out on a date night to see a movie (PG-13) we had been looking forward to. Counting costs for the sitter, tickets, and refreshments we had an invested almost $75 on the evening by the time we sat down in the theater. During the movie two young girls kept talking, running in & out of the theater, laughing, texting, etc. At least 3 people (myself included) complained to the staff to no avail.
When the movie was over I spoke with the manager and pointed out the two children standing in the lobby with their parents. It turned out two mothers had brought their children (5 in all) to the theatre and turned them loose without any supervision while the moms went to see their own R-rated movie.
It's unfortunate that the actions of inconsiderate & uninvolved "parents" such as these are bringing about the child free trends we're starting to see. However, I can't help but agree that it's a necessity.
I think it is nice to get away without children sometimes. I know that no matter what, children can be noisy but if children were better mannered it may not be an issue. It is lack of disipline that is frustrating.
As a father of three grown children, I have had more than my share of observing my kids and other people's kids in restaurants over the last 27 years, so I think I have enough years invested to opine on this topic.
First, I must confess that now that I'm in my mid-fifties, I have admittedly, grown less tolerant of parents who seem to be clueless of the fact that their children's crying out and screaming throughout their stay at the restaurant is offensive to neighboring diners. We all know that the responsibility for the child's behavior ultimately falls on the parent. Unfortunately, many parents are too concerned about eating their own food that they continue to tolerate the child's misbehavior throughout the meal as I have observed regularly.
When my wife and I were unable to control one of our children's behavior in a restaurant, one of us would get up and leave the dining area to deal with our child outside or in the entry area. It either worked out or we would sit in the car until the rest of our family finished and got into the car. We would explain to our children that dining out was a privilege and they would not be able to go out again if they would not behave.
Restaurants have every right to provide their customers with a ambiance that does not tolerate children crying out or misbehaving in my opinion. Before banning kids, I might suggest that they restrict the hours that children are allowed to dine with family. But I strongly believe that when children disturb other diners, it is the parent's responsibility to remove the child. This also goes for the parents who seem to think nothing of their child crying out or talking/shouting out in church and fail to get up and escort the child out of the santuary immediately.
While I also believe that children are a blessing from the Lord, this may be the unfortunate action needed to help parents to see that the children should not be in charge. As many have already expressed, a pleasant night out with your mate should be just that pleasant and sitting in a room with several unruly children does not fit that description.
Having said the above, I also agree with Jim. Compassion is necessary if we find ourselves in that situation. I do not feel that a restaurant offering service to only adults is within their rights and if you have children then you will need to pick another restaurant.
Children are definitely a blessing from God, but the reality is that a large number of parents these days aren't parenting/disciplining their children. You know... there's this new trend to treat children as little people, tip-toeing around them, give them their way, encourage them to voice their little opinions - - Basically, don't discipline because it might tarnish their esteems. Yes, there is a distinct line between disciplining & abuse; (I am not talking about abuse here). But the fact that so many parents are not doing their jobs to raise & train their children properly, means the rest of us tend to suffer in public places. This isn't always the case, but I think we need to be careful to not take these new "rules" that companies are implementing too personally. I have been at the movies where parents had their screaming 2 year old sitting behind me at a time that was obviously past his bedtime. It basically runined the movie for me. At the same time, I can see the fairness in first-class fares restricting certain ages. People who fly first-class often pay SEVERAL hundred dollars more than coach (overseas flights are tremendously expensive).... If someone pays a hefty amount of money for a 5+ hour flight in first class, then they should fly comfortably at least.
I am trying to see the other side of the coin here. I don't want all kinds of businesses to ban children by any means! We can't always control our child who may be throwing a fit. I know that can be humiliating, and I do think we should have compassion for parents struggling to get their child to settle down. But I have to take into account how often I see wildly misbehaved children running through stores, or going to restaurants where parents simply ignore their screaming child while other patrons are trying to enjoy a night out.
I have three grown children, me and my wife though we enjoy time with them also need our time, Solitude. I have always struggled with the fact that parents have stopped parenting. It is not the occasional struggle parents have with children that is at issue, it is the societal norm that they no longer train a child in the way it should go. They (The parents) are given in to not dealing with their child, but instead care more for themselves. They spend the time texting, talking on their cell phone, doing just about anything but raise their children or pay them attention. Let's face it, a baby cries because it needs something, children act out because they need attention and discipline. I do feel there is a need for parents, adults, etc. to have a place they can go on date night or otherwise that is child-free though I feel that this should be an exception rather than the rule.
I personally love children but have seen couples with young children who refuse to try to calm down a noisy or rambumctious child. Even at our wedding, there was a small child that was allowed to crawl underneath the pews and became noisy when the parents told him to come sit down. Because of the very personal event, they should have at least taken him outside or taken him home. I know that children can be unpreditible but it is the parents that do not EVEN ATTEMPT to calm a child down that I believe is the root of this trend.
When our daughter was little, if she became unruly and we were eating out in public, I or my husband would take her outside for a short walk and that usually helped.
There are also times when couples need together time without their children and if they eat out, it is nice not to have to listen to someone else's child or children.
I don't necessarily see these new policies/practices as an anti-children trend. I see it more as a counter to the poor parenting and child-centric society we've created by teaching children to esteem themselves instead of the Lord. As a society, we have taught them they are the gods of their own lives and, as such, are entitled to the deference and esteem of others. Scripture I rarely hear read at church, but that often comes to mind when I am at work at my local high school or just navigating a public place such as restaurant or theater is Philippians 2:3-4:
"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others."
Until God's way supplants the self-esteem philosophy which has now damaged at least a couple generations, the older of which are now parents themselves who expect others to tolerate their children's poor, misguided behavior in public, adults may very well welcome more peaceful public environments.
By the way, in case any one wonders, I have a 25 year old and an 18 year old. When they were very young we stayed home a lot.
It's not Satan, trying to destroy the family again. It's likely misbehaving children and the parents who permit it. Human nature has evil enough on its own without any help from Satan. Even believers.
Anyone who has been kicked in the back of the seat for 6 hours by a child who was not restrained by their parent would gladly pay the extra price for a child-free first class ticket. And it wasn't Satan kicking the seat, just a child with little training in respect of others.
I don't have kids, so take this with a grain of salt.
It comes down to the fact that while there are a lot of great parents with well behaved kids who won't put up with temper tantrums, out of control behavior, and screaming- there are ten times as many who will. I'm sure that when little Johnny has been screaming at his parents for days/weeks/months/years they're desensitized to it and don't care, but some of us enjoy being able to eat without having our ears hurt by his high pitched shrieks.
The fact that society has swung 180* to where it's considered an impolite imposition for people to expect kids to be well behaved or removed from a venue where that kind of behavior is inappropriate (like a decent restaurant, movie theater, etc) is baffling to me. As a kid growing up, if I threw those kinds of shenanigans you can bet that one of my parents hauled me off to the bathroom or the car for a little chat, and maybe a swat if I wouldn't listen.
The sad truth is I have some extremely well behaved nephews, and some friends have kids that are very well behaved as well. The problem is that they're now limited in where they can go due to the rise in "child free" through no fault of their own.
The problem you run into is that it's hard to say "go ahead" to one person and then explain to the next that they can't bring their kids because they're horrible misbehaving hellians.
For those who want to just say "well you're not a parent and you don't understand that kids act out" believe me, I do. I was a kid before you know
It's also pretty easy to tell the parent who doesn't put up with this stuff, but the kid is simply acting out, versus the parent who just doesn't care, and doesn't discipline their kid.
To those of you who have kids and won't put up with their screaming, God bless you, you're too few and far between.
I agree with Mary Jean. I also think the issue is more with parents not parenting their children than the child. There are so many parents these days that do not teach their children how to behave and that a temper fit will only lead them to the bathroom and possible straight home. Instead they let their child disrupt the whole restaurant or airplane. I love children and raised 3. They are raising 5 and we all have had a moment of taking a child to the bathroom. It's handled and we return to peace at the table. Crying babies are not the case -- unruly children not being corrected but instead ignored (like that works!!!) by the parent is the issue. Let's put the parents in a time out!
Whille I have been in plenty of situations where there were out of control children, I cannot imagine finding one more reason to exclude them from their parents prescence. I would probably choose to boycott this type of business, just like I have chosen not to attend "adult only" sunday school class parties.
I can relate to a desire for child free restaurants. But, I think more important than preventing children in these public places is for parents to be responsible in "training them up." My complaint to children in restaurants and public places, is not the noise of the child but the absolute disrespect of the parent in not controlling the child, not like a dog but expecting manners from them. My parents used to take us out of the restaurant to discipline if we misbehaved, we did the same with our son. We did this out of respect for the other patrons. Yes it was inconvenient for us, but it was also how we would expect other parents to treat us.
Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. Our society has lost a lot of common sense. We have become a society of rather than dealing with the issue immediately, we will "kick the can down the road" and let someone else deal with it. Parents need to take the lead. "Train up their children..." and know that loving disciplining is healthy, it won't hurt them, through it they will learn to respect others. Respecting others, putting others needs as more important as yourself, I believe that is the answer to the issues we face today in this "me first" society we live in.
I'm from a family of 8 and I can remember going out to eat as a child and sitting still and obeying. I now have 2 boys of my own and try to instill the same obedience in them. its not easy, but I think most of the time it's not the child's fault but the parents who don't know how to control the children when going out in public. I know there are many reasons for outbursts and it happens. If more parents would find what discipline works for their children and would stick to it, maybe more children would not be cast out.
While I hate to see more child banning, it's a reaction to our culture of undisciplined children. Good, thinking parents can't seem to control their kids. Why? There's not threat to them. We can't spank them -- so society says. So we have to have a wrangle of wills.
I see kids going nuts on planes, screaming and kicking, and the parents are like mush to the will of a 2 year old.
Focus on the Family, start teaching parents how to discipline their children in love so they can take them anywhere.
I think it is a sign of our culture's selfishness, only "my" needs are to be met, not anyone else's. To not allow a family in the restaurant because their baby may be loud is just selfish. Our culture is it "all about me". But if you have children it can't be all about you.
I do have to add that the "child-free" shopping hours at Whole Foods is during the day and it isn't for the other patrons but a nursery of sorts so the Moms can go shopping without their baby one day. Any Mom who goes shopping with toddlers/babies understands how nice it is once in a while to go grocery shopping alone. So I don't see this as child unfriendly, just giving Mom a break for a short time.
Having children does not necessarily mean they will be a disruption. I have eaten in restaurants with my children who behave amazingly well. It is in large part the parents who determine the behavior, and it doesn't stop at toddlers. We as a family have been in restaurants where sadly the teenage child was throwing a most disturbing fit, probably more discomforting then a crying child.
I would choose to not patronize a business that excludes children, and at the same time people need to recognize to train up a child in the way he should go. When you go out to eat don't go right before naptime when jr.'s hungry and fussy, don't go if baby hasn't had their nap. Take a toy that your little one hasn't seen with you to the restaurant so they will be entertained. Create a small busy bag for such occasions and everyone including mom and dad will enjoy their outing more!
Most of my children are grown now but as a mom to 7, I fully understand many frustrations about children in public. But our society does not value children and so we have these absolutley ridiculous signs "No Children Allowed!" What will be next? No mentally or physically handicapped, no elderly, no turrets allowed? Where does it end? It doesnt, it opens a pandoras box. Quite frankley I would rather hear a child acting up than listen to the foul mouths of a lot of adults who cant keep their own mouth quiet and yet here we are talking about little kids. As many times as I have had to listen to some child crying in a restaurant, I have been forced to listen to some foul mouth who's 2nd language seems to be cussing, just as many times.
Yes, Children are a blessing, but they also need to act accordingly. When my twins were under three, we rarely went anywhere with them. When we did, if one of them acted out one of us would take the child outside for a short time. We lived in Wisconsin. It is difficult to keep four small children quiet in a restaurant especially while waiting for food. I felt at that time tha tmy children should not impose on others, and when my husband and I go out it is very disturbing to be bombarded with the continuous screaming of small children. I love children, but many of todays children often misbehave and no one corrects them.
You article highlights the exact problem: "But children are unpredictable and you can’t guarantee compliance or smooth sailing." Because of that little kids should not be on airplanes. Their high pitched screams & crying because of air pressure or whatever is so awful to have to hear because there is no escape for those who want quiet. As a frequent flyer, it has become a major problem and source of much irritation. A person can escape and move to another part of a restaurant, but not on a plane.
This is such a delicate issue. When my kids were young we were very careful taking them out and sought to go to "family oriented" establishments. We also tried very hard to teach them courtesy, manners, self-discipline and respect for others --- especially in public. This was at times a challenge. As such I can "feel" for those families attempting to enjoy a time together in public.
On the flip side, I have noticed a trend where many families no longer attempt to instill those same "archaic" values, and forget that others may not be as blessed about their children climbing over seats, running down the isles, throwing temper tantrums and such. Sadly, over the years I have also seen this in our own church as parents refuse to take charge of their children in service when the Word of God for teh salvation of souls is being preached, and at times we've been forced to stop teh service for an usher to assist the parents. Many parents also all but "abandon" their children before and after church so that the parents can fellowship while their children "run wild" unsupervised. Others give little, loving concern to those servants watching the parents' children, who might also like to fellowship or leave after ther service. Parents then wonder why there are so few volunteers to babysit their small children so they don't have to.
As I said, a delicate balance. Bottom line: if I go to a family oriented establishment I go expecting children to be there. If however, I have saved up to take my wife out to a more expensive restaurant, I'm not blessed by a table where the parents have brought their children, refuse to discipline them and then my wife and I can't even carry on a conversation --- all while paying a hefty bill for a floor show we really didn't want included with our meal. My best advice, simply ask to be moved to a new table.
As with most issues, there are two sides and wisdom is required.
It seems to me the majority of parents today are lacking in teaching and dicipline of children and spend their time making idle threats of consequenses for bad behavior with no follow up. TV programs portray parents, escpecially Father's as idiots or fumbly fools. America has produced a generation of kids that need instant satisfaction, now gradification, and no respect for authority figures. What is even more heartbreaking, their own parents do not want to be around them, why then is it so shocking that other people do not want to be around them. The term "Kids will be Kids' has a whole new meaning today with a generation of children that have no morals and no conscience. Be it parents that want to be 'tolerant' rather than responsible or parents that are absent or abusive, this new generation of children are frightening. I beleive the 'childfree' trend will spread like weeds and that is also frightening. From Psalms, skip on over to Revelation! I have 2 grown daughters, 5 grandchildren and a 3 month old great-grandson. I pray for them continually.
Consider this - with all the people out there that will report you to the authorities if you DARE to try to discipline your child, some parents figure, why bother?
Dear Mr. Daly,
While I certainly understand your societal concerns about this appearing trend to provide a “child free” times by some service oriented businesses, I would say that the arguments you make in your article tend to be rather one-sided; however, as the head of Focus on the Family, your job is to sound the alarm and get our attention... After having read the opinioins written by many of your readers, I was encouraged by what was blogged by other readers who posted their more “fair and balanced” views on your blog concerning this very important subject.
My wife and I are one of those childless couples you mentioned in your article; however, the choice of not having children of our own was not a choice we made, but it was a choice that was made for us by the Cancer I had at age 13 and the Chemo and Radiation treatments that saved my life, but left me sterile. My wife and I have been married for 28+ years, and in fact do eat out a lot since cooking for two people who work long hours doesn’t make much sense. Needless to say that during these 28 years we have seen and observed A LOT OF CHANGE in how parents handle unruly children in restaurants and other public places.
Over the years, my wife and I have had numerous discussions over these incidents as we eat our meals and observe how these various sets of parents handle these uncomfortable and often stressful situations—by the way it is not our comfort and stress that I am referring to… But in some cases, we are amazed at the extremely laid back approach some parents take in not addressing their unruly child or children at all!
Mr. Daly, the real problem here leading to these “child free” times in some business establishments are not the childrren, but the parents! Over the years, my wife and I have been amazed at the parents who refuse to act like parents should, and thus the child takes control of the unruly situation while the frantic parents try to “negotiate” with the little child. My wife and I don’t recall ever having any “negotiation sessions” with our parents when they told us what we were to do or how we were to behave because we thoroughly understood that there would be consequences that would follow our disobedience.
My wife and I were children in the 1960’s. My family was from Cuba as we immigrated to the US in 1967, and my wife’s family was your typical American family who lived in rural outskirts of Washington, DC—not that is rural any more… Eating out for both of our families was the exception and not the “norm.” As my wife and I have discussed the parental lectures and prep time we received before we even left the house about what our parents’ expectations were concerning how we were expected to behave, and the consequences of not doing so, we were amazed how similar those discussions were even though our cultural backrounds were so different.
So when we were going out to eat the expectations were clear, and if we misbehaved, our fathers would immidiately remove us from the restaurant and take us to the car for a “counseling session” where we were given the choice of behaving correctly and rejoining the family or forgoing our meal and staying in the car with Dad. Well, as you can imagine, we had great incentive to take the first option! ![]()
The problem with unruly children is not really the fault of the children, but the parents who refuse to be parents because some of them are just so laid back in their parenting approach that they feel that the rest of us enjoy watching the child’s or children’s tantrum while other customers in the restaurant like us cannot even hear our own conversation.
We live in a very self-centered world. If it is OK for me, then it should be OK for others. My wife and I recall that our parents acted switfly to remove their unruly children from the scene as they were considerate of the other families trying to enjoy a night out. Today that concern doesn’t seem to phase many parents and thus trends like the ones you highlight in your article are emerging.
Frankly, the trend you highlight in your article disturbs me very much, but I can understand why business owners are trying to provide a nice and relaxing time for their customers since some of today’s parents appear totally inept at controlling their children when they behave in appropriately. Children are God’s remarkable creations and are incredible blessings that God blesses our lives with; however, He did tell us to, “Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it Proverbs 22:6)."
I have always wanted children, but we were unable to have any. Children are a joy
to my heart. I think we are living in the days Jesus talked about.
Unfortunately, todays children are "free" to express their wants; and, when they are unhappy, everyone sees and hears about it. From my observation, parents just expect others to tolerate their behavior.
It could also stem from fear of parents to correct their children under the watchful eye of the public.
At this stage in the game, I am not sure I can honestly judge what the trend will be. Hearing you concern is a bit sobering, not knowing the direction this will go. We are enthusiastic lovers of children, veteran homeschoolers, have a tremendously close relationship with our now young adult children, however.............
I think a tremendous issue here is cultural trends, especially in the area of parenting. The lack of boundaries and training in good behaviour is abhorent. I remember well what type of behaviour was acceptable to my parents when we were privileged to go out to dinner or any other public social event, and I have pasted the half century mark. As I reflect, we were not abused or somehow injured at being required to behave well. Honestly, I believe it made us more grateful people.
Culturally, the focus is on ME and my pleasure without regard for the impact it will have on others and this goes well beyond the issue of taking our children out with us. We, too, have had our children react unappropriately in public. It isn't brain surgery to know that it would be best for the other dear ones trying to enjoy their leisure that we might take our child out of the restaurant? Fundamentally, the child may learn a lesson as well. Of course, at very early ages the little one may not understand. Then it is the parents responsibility to be others minded and not put the child or the other patrons in that tough place. "Think of others as better than oneself?" With that said, one can understand why those who don't know Christ and who have a desire to please patrons would consider such bans.
Let's be the Body and remedy this by seeking to LOVE our blessings without reserve, train them up well, and use discernment where the experience of others is concerned. Maybe this might come under life-style evangelism? Who knows what a shock it would be to others if we did. They might even ask you about your techniques and their Foundation hoping to employ them personally. Hmmm, let's get people thinking about what we have that they want.
First, society forbids a parent to "train up a child". Here in California, children of school age are taught that if they are discilined (spanked) by their parents, they should alert an authority, who will punish the parent. A parent would never spank a child in public and children soon learn who is in control- and it's not Mommy or Daddy. Somehow the threat of "time out" when we get home does nothing to deter the behavior.
Second, children are wild, out of control, an irreverant. As a former leader in childrens ministery, I find I no longer can tolerate the lack of respect to our Lord or fellow church members. I have found children fishing in the baptismal tank, playing keep away with a beach ball in the main sanctuary, and purposely destroying church property. They have become bold, defiant, and rude.
Now, if this is being tolerated within the church, consider what life is like outside of the church. Why would anyone want to be around undisciplined children? Parents themselves need to escape from the chaos and do so through many electronic gadgets that occupy their childrens time while at home, in the car, ect.
I suggest, that in having "childrens church" and many other things catered only to children, that we are failing our children. When exactly should they learn reverence in the house of God? Where do they learn respect for others? How do they learn to sit quietly and listen?
The current trend is only in response to a much bigger problem.
No one loves babies and children more than me. I do agree though with many of the comments already posted, because I think we are seeing more and more of uncontrolled children in restaurants and public places. We all know that even a very well behaved child can have a bad moment and throw a tantrum, however, I believe the problem we are seeing today lies more at the feet of parents who are afraid to discipline and are so worried about "crushing their little spirits" that they have allowed their young children to run around in a restaurant, scream for minutes on end, play at the table, etc., etc., creating an atmosphere of utter chaos and everyone loses their appetite! I raised two very active sons, and children can be taught to sit at the dinner table and eat with manners!
This is a topic that is close to my heart because I have 4 children and have experience with the phases of children and parenting. And this saddens me, it causes me to pray for our culture. I have witnessed a trend that devalues the "stay at home" mom outwardly and beneath the surface; that devalues children as unruly, annoying, costly, nuisances. Their are instances stuck in my memory of being out and about and from being at home with a solicitor at my door. When my children were toddlers it was cause for consideration when taking them out shopping or to a meal. I have been extremely blessed to have children that enjoyed mealtimes out and they understood if mom and dad, or others in the restaurant did not enjoy their meals due to unruly behavior we would not be going out again any time soon. We still had fun, and when we could afford it, we went out together. In fact, I think we had more fun together than staying at home. I can't imagine being a mom with children in tow going to a grocery store and not being able to shop because my children are . . .what . . . a hazard to public health? That would not only devalue my children but I would feel devalued as well. It shows a lack of respect for family. It is right up there with schools trying to sue the parent of heavy weight children for neglect.
I pray that this does not happen.
Lord, help this people to respect what you have created, marraige, family, and the blessings of children.
The culture, (marked by more individuals) seems more and more intolerant of children. Case in point - I was traveling back home on an airplane with my 5 year old daughter a few years ago. Their was a woman seated by the window, next to my daughter (who was in the middle seat), who was so incredibly rude to her that I was speechless. My daughter was NOT misbehaving in any way. She is a sweet girl who was sitting quietly, and yet the woman would not speak to her; moved as far away from her as possible and even jerked her arm away when it was accidentally brushed. If this woman was any indicator of the less tolerant public, I am deeply saddened! Let's extend extra grace to parents and children wherever we are! It's what Jesus would do.
I can understand both sides of the arugment. I don't have kids myself. And I don't usually have a problem most of the time with kids. But I do like the idea of kid free movies, especially the ones where you can expect a ton of kids. Chatting kids in movies is really anoying IMO. We always go to the latest showings we can when we go see a "kids" movie, just so hopefully most of the theater will be adults.
However I think the issue is deeper than just unruley kids are anoying, the problem is that parents aren't allowed to discipline their children in public. If a child is screaming their head off at home, a parent can still spank them. But in public they risk being seen and reported to child services for the same act. So kids learn that in public they can get their way easier cause the parents have no choice but to give in, but good parents shouldn't do that, which means their kid is just going to scream all the more, anoying the other people in the area all the more.
So I think this is just a natural response to a bigger deeper problem in our society that really has nothting to do with our value of children, but with what constitues good and apropriate discipline.
I have 3 beautiful children and I am well aware of the challenge of facing unwelcomed outbursts in public places. However, I think I have more compassion on parents who attempt to "do" something to correct their child's behavior. Some parents don't attempt to remove the screaming baby from the room or to stop the child from running around the restaurant. If I was a store owner, I would not want that family in my store at that moment either. We parents need to teach our kids that certain places warrant certain behaviors and we must consistently correct them when they are out of line. Believe me, I know that can be exhausting, but eventually the kids will "get it". My kids are now ages 6 -12, but even when they were younger, they learned to become model citizens in public places. I think this ban on kids has a lot to do with parents who do not teach decorum.
It would be nice to have some more expensive restaurants reserved for adults only. It would also be nice if adults who like to take their children out to eat would help to make all children welcome. If your child is causing a distraction or otherwise annoying diners and/or staff, please calmly remove the child until you can restore calm. We took our children out to eat at family restaurants when they were young, but we did not allow them to be disruptive. I love to see well behaved children in restaurants or other places I might visit. I do make allowances for infants But even infants can and should be removed from the vicinity of
other customers when they are crying loudly and uncontrollably. I would imagine that removing the parents and the child would help the parents to feel less stressed and calm down which, in turn. would help the child calm down.
I agree with what Mike said about this being indicative of a "me first" attitude. If you look in many of these responses, it is all about "me, me, me". What I want. How I want my experience to be. Thank goodness people didn't treat us that way when we were growing up. I wonder if we are thinking about how this will influence or instruct the next generation. I also agree with Mike that influence, not mandating is the answer. And, of course, free trade will find other solutions if we fail in the higher good.
What an intriguing issue that speaks to two vital issues going on in America today: the deterioration of the family in many circles and the eroding of so many of our freedoms. While this certainly could be an attempt by some businesses to make a statement that children are more a nuisance than a blessing (which I wholeheartedly disagree with - I adore my three children), I believe the bigger issue here is that a private business has the right to make decisions that best serve their business interests. They're not hurting anyone by providing a place for those who would prefer to shop or eat in a child-free environment - there are still plenty of places for parents to go with their children. And in a free society, if child-friendly establishments become scarce, the market will prompt entrepeneurs to open businesses that are not only friendly to families but that trumpet their family-friendly features from their marketing rooftops.
So, I'm not too concerned with this trend. And I certainly hope no one begins to call for an already over-involved government to step in and dictate what businesses can do in this area. Trust our free system to provide enough establishments to meet most people's needs and wishes.
It's just stunning how many PERFECT parents and children there WERE in the world! Who knew so many people managed children SO well in days of old. The real fact is that most of these post-parents posting here didn't take their kids out nearly as much as they "remember" doing. In the past couple generations LIFE was different than it is today. People were home alot more, and going out was a rare-ish occasion.
Modern parenting is harder than ever before - sorry to all of you super-post-disciplinarians. The support that parents of old had is not available to parents of today. Grandparents are still working themselves to pay for baby-boomer lifestyles run amok. It's those same baby-boomers that expect that they DESERVE it all and that includes childless church, restaurants, theaters, pools, parks, doctor/dentist offices, etc. The list goes on and on. My own baby-boomer mother visited our local pool with my 3 children and myself and complained about and harangued children in the pool for splashing her and swimming too close to her. I had to remind her that we were at a semi-public pool and getting splashed is expected in a pool environment and she was inthe pool. She was annoyed to say the least at the pool behaviour around her. She's the same in all of the above mentioned scenarios as well. The common expectation of the boomers is that they're done with that "kid business" and they want it out of their entire orbit as well.
By the way, I'm a 44 year old mother of a 9, 7, and 3 year old. I consider myself to be mature and smart. BUT PARENTING IN TODAYS ENVIRONMENT IS HARDER THAN EVER BEFORE. I can't say it enough. And all the people that commented about all the bad parents out there not doing their job clearly do not understand the confused environment out there for parents today. We're told to do it all right, discipline perfectly, don't discipline at all, don't dare touch your child, give them a good spank if they act up, don't allow them to be disprespectful, let them be themselves, and on and on the contradictions flow around us. Meanwhile, generally parents today are just trying to survive and hold on to some semblance of sanity, which is easier for some than others due to the nature of each individual child.
SO: for all the POST-PARENTS putting their two cents in here, consider the desperate needs of all those unruly parents and children out there that you're so quick to judge while you reminisce about how well you did it in your day.
... and I can't thank enough the few people here, mostly men I notice, that clarified the very hard nature of parenting and their kind and positive words for parents trying and trying and trying and still not doing it quite right for all those out there that manage(d) so well. It brought tears to my overwhelmed eyes. ![]()
I remember in the 50's that some theaters had soundproof rooms with windows so the parents of young children could watch and hear the movies and the rest of the theater was not disurbed by crying babies, etc.
Some restaurants had signs that said "well behaved" children were welcome.
I see no excuse for children running and yelling in a nice resturant, (and some are old enough to know better.) Leave them home until they can be expected to use good manners. Perhaps rooms for people with young children could be provided?
Whether it's a sign of the deification of children, lack of parental discipline or concern for others, really makes no difference. NO business would make such 'rulings' if there were not consumer demand for it. I am all for it since all the venues you mention are places where disruptive children adversely affect other patrons who are spending more than a few dollars to be there!
Early on in parenting two very active boys, close in age, we learned that there were places we would not be going until they were older. We were grateful when we no longer HAD to go to McDonald's when fast food was necessary. Now as empty-nesters who can only occasionally see our "500+ mile away" grandchildren and we know where to go/not to go.
Children of the appropriate age should be removed by their parents from theatres if they disturb others. Yes, I DO advocate that even if you sit apart to observe them when they are older when most parents allow them to go alone. Having to leave a movie just once will fix behavior problems swiftly, not to mention embarassment to their peers. Teaching consideration for others while out in public is both caught and taught.
I would commend establishments who have such child-free times as a boon to business and maybe a wake-up call to parents who have been oblivious to the consternation their children cause.
This trend sadly is during worship also in many churchs. Young parents just don't realize that the nurserys are for THEM. There are at least 10 newborns to age 2 in our church. If all the parents decided to keep them with them in service and each one was taken out at their first peep, that would be 10 interruptions in the sermon. Do they think of that? I doesn't appear so.
There are really 2 issues here: First is the poor parenting skills which manifest in public places with tantrums and inappropriate behaviour. The second is the proliferation of of increasingly narcissistic adults that place their pleasure and desires above everything else. This is the bitter root of the same-sex marriage issue we face today. The narcissistic adults of today are the selfish brats of yesterday.
Banning children from certain times and places has become a necessity, a band aid to deal with the symptom of a deeper problem. I have 2 daughters, and I fully support these restrictions. An expensive restaurant is NOT the place for kids - they hardly appreciate the cuisine and they would be much happier in a restaurant that has a play area.
Children are a blessing, but throughout scripture, there is plenty of guidance that teaches a lot about bringing them up in the ways of the Lord. Proverbs 22:6: "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it."(NIV)
Too many parents have failed to meet their obligations in raising their children, and society is paying the price in the form of hordes of unruly brats that are a law unto themselves. The brat of today is the criminal of tommorrow.
Parenthood is reponsibility as well as a blessing, and we need to follow the biblical pattern instead of the worldy ways that produce the nasty little brats that restaurants and airlines are trying to defend themselves against. Part of the upbringing is discipline with love, so enforcing discipline is showing love.
Restaurants, airlines and stores are fully entitled to introduce these rules, because other customers have paid money for their service, and should be entitled to it without having to deal with someone else's poor parenting skills.
If individual businesses want to do that, that is fine, but it should not become law through government. That way it can always be adjusted if it turned out to be a poor decision they chan then change their policy. Also if there a particualr resteraunt that is adult ony(meaning only people above a certain age(and not content wise) or telling people that no screaming kids will be allowed to stay, that is fine too, cuz it would be nice for people to go out and not have to worry about their ears bursting due to the noise that the kids can make.
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I know there are times, when I or somebody I know could not stand any more noise for the rest of the day because they hear screaming children all day at work. There are times when a kid throws a fit and its really loud, it really annoys me.
My children are older (teenagers) so for my wife and I we prefer to go out and enjoy a quiet evening where we can talk and enjoy each other's company. With that said, I like the idea of restaurants catering to adults with a child free environment. I don't think we have to worry about all restaurants doing this however. Families are a large consumer base for the restaurant industry so they will always welcome them. This trend to offer child-free dining may be the result of a broad trend of rudeness where many families let their children act up and scream in public venues. When confronted they act offended and in most cases won't do anything believing they have a right to enjoy their meal, movie or event with screaming child in hand. This lack of social decency has me concerned and shows how selfish and inconsiderate of a society we've become. Unfortunately, this has even carried over into the church. As an usher, I had the terrible task of confronting a mother with crying child in service the other day. She let her baby cry for ten minutes before I came over to kindly remind her that we have cry rooms in the back of the chuch available for her and her child. She was not happy with me but she did finely move. Its a shame she did not have the awareness that she and her baby were disrupting the service.
Children are absolutely a blessing from the Lord and should be protected and nurtured. But as parents, we have a calling and responsbility to raise them in the ways of the Lord. We also need to be salt and light in this world by showing respect, kindness, gentleness, self control and more. I can think of no better gateway to witnessing then to have well behaved children who are considerate of others. Its a lot of work but a goal that could glorify the Lord.
I have a small child, and I still agree with the policy. The truth is, no one appreciates a screaming child, not even when it's their own...but ESPECIALLY when it's not their own. If I go through the trouble to get a baby sitter to watch my baby while my husband and I go out on a rare "date night", the last thing I want is to have a screaming baby to keep us company while we are away from him. I don't think this should be a round the clock rule, but I think offering kid free hours or kid free movie showings are a good idea. However, I don't see a point in offering kid-free showings of family or children's' movies.
I also agree with the airlines. People pay more to ride first class because it's more comfortable than coach. More room, less NOISE, better food, more comfortable chairs, etc. Why should they have to have their flight disrupted by a screaming child. That is part of the reason they pay the big bucks! I also agree with what the article said that children are just unpredictable. I sit near the back at church, on days there is no nursery service, with my son in case he starts to cry, so that I can quietly excuse myself should I need too. If he cries at a restaurant when we are all out as a family, I go outside. It's polite to take your child outside when you can. I love my son and he is a HUGE blessing from the Lord. I would never trade him for extra sleep or silence. But, when I'm in public, and it's not my child, I don't want to hear it.
Well, our church implements a "childless" sanctuary rule. We are not supposed to bring our children into the sanctuary; but are strongly requested to take them to children's church at the very beginning of the service.
I would love to have our family worship together but due to the fact that not everyone trains their children how to behave during a service, we all have to leave our children in a classroom.
I agree with Susan. I've been in public where parents deal with a misbehaving child (and often sleepy child who should be home in bed due to hour) and I've also see parents just give in to the child's demands to keep the peace. It is true children need to be trained before they're taken out in public......it's easier on the parents, and easier on the child. That training begins in the home, and I'm afraid so many families today don't even sit down and eat together. It's a free for all.....eat what you want, when you want.
There are plenty of child-friendly places to take little ones, if parents don't care how they behave. I think it's fine if a few establishments want to make their place adults only.
As a mother, I know it was and is a blessing when I can go somewhere for a few hours and not have to listen to children. Judging from the comments, there are many who agree. But we must be careful to look at the principle behind the decisions of these establishments.
I am not sure that the issue here is so much "Is this a trend of dislike for children or a blessing to parents." The issue, I think, is this: does a restaurant or a store have the right to set its own perimeters on what, when and to whom it will sell?
I believe that these establishments have the God-given right to freedom of association. If they want to have "children-free" resturants, hours, or certain days, they certainly may. That is what our War for Independence was fought for. If they want to provide a service, they may.
However, I also have a God-given right to freedom of association, and I can choose whether to patronize the establishment or not.
We are so used to getting upset over what someone else does that we fail to ask ourselves if that person has the right to do it, even if we do not like it. We want everyone to play nice, according to some rules somewhere, and we want someone (read:government) to make sure they do. But that only leads to governmental interference in our lives.
We have forgotten that the pressure of the free market may be used at any time, and we can take our money elsewhere. If an airline will not allow children on their planes, perhaps another will open to cater to families. Same with restaurants and stores, etc.
I understand that we want to protect our right to take our children out in public, and we want to watch carefully where this goes. But we cannot stop God-given rights of others, or else we will have to live with government telling us what we can and cannot do in every aspect of our lives.
Oh, wait......
Though I see a multitude of comments, especially using scripture, I think it wise to take everything in context. I am a father of 5 from the ages of 10-23, so I think my perspective has some weight in todays hustle to make a point. First, from a Biblical viewpoint, in context, Christ wasn't stating that children should be allowed anywhere they or their parents want take them. Being a parent doen't always equate to mature and sensible thinking either. Are you truly offending a child when you take him into an environment that is inappropriate for him/her? Like PG-13 and above movies, upscale restuarants, bars, first class (Really?), on too many levels they (and possibly you) have no business being there. Over the coarse of the last few decades parental consent or judgement has deteriorated to its lowest denominator. Honestly, I've seen this in our very churches today. A born again Christian with a young child (out of control) in the adult worship that refuses to exit and calm the child down. Meanwhile, a few seats over is a lost seeker who is totally distracked and misses Gods truth. I've also seen small children in movies, the theater, and 5 star restaurants. They were hardly behaving (or even knew how) and the parents were in their own worlds tossing food at them like pets.
Whether its church or public spaces, I think our generation has trouble drawing the line between appropriate and inappropriate. Its a parenting mandate that you learn this before entering the public or don't be upset the this world with see you and your child for what it is, a hit on the bottom line... Remember, we are called to be salt and light, not them.
I fully support the right of businesses to offer childfree services. I DON'T want the gov't involved and I don't see this as anti-child. Let's face it; some parents refuse to discipline their children; they bring young children who are already exhausted to a nice resturant (church), they misbehave and everyone else's meal (worship) is disturbed. Why bring an infant to a movie; if parents don't want to leave their baby with a sitter, stay home with him? This is not about Jesus allowing children to come to Him; this is about parents being responsible for their children. We took our children almost everywhere we went, but we taught them manners at home.
There are places where children can be children and I enjoy seeing them there; parks, amusement parks, sports events, etc. I do not enjoy them running through the isles of church, a plane, theater, resturant, store, or any building. I do not accept that I am selfish to want to enjoy my meal, movie or time with my family without someone else's child(ren) acting up. Do you have "children's church" at your place of worship or do you struggle to worship and hear the sermon above fussy and crying children?
Don't forget the safety factor. The very parents who fail to watch their children want to sue if they are injured. In a perfect world where parents train up a child in the way he should go, children are welcome everywhere.
Let us look at some verses for Christians and not at just opinions. First Ps. 127:4-5 "Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them..." Often is this verse quoted as a proud declaration by Christian families with children. Far too often these families and their children show little to be proud of in how their children act. In this verse the psalmist says that children are "like arrows in the hands of a mighty warrior..." There is an indication of skill. Warriors trained in shooting arrows hit the mark or the target with their arrows. They aim at what they hit at. The arrows/children of a godly father/mother hit the mark in how their children behave/act. They are a testimony of boundaries, peace, joy, kindness to others. The second part of v. 5 which is rarely if ever quoted with the rest says, "He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate." There is a variety of thoughts on what this is to mean. I believe that a man's children will not put the man to shame as he sits in the gates and debates with his political enemies. A respected man (such as Boaz) would have a place of respect as a judge/congressman in the gates of a city. His council would have been sought after if it his reputation proved worthy. Here the psalmist states that the character/behavior of children are a direct reflection on our reputation. He is stating that the man whose children are respectful, obedient, godly, straight and strong will not give his enemies, his political rivals, opportunities to discredit his reputation, but instead will lift it up.
Secondly, look at Phil. 2:3-4 in response to this article. "Don't act out of selfish ambition or be conceited. Instead, humbly think of others as being better than yourselves. Don't be concerned only about your own interests, but also be concerned about the interests of others." As believers we need to be and to teach our children to be "thinking of others more than ourselves and our own interests." We must think of the preciousness of others. This extends to restaurants, planes, public places. We must train our children to be respectful of others possessions, space, time, etc. This must hit the mark in being godly examples to others. Many times I have had others (especially older individuals) come and thank me for how friendly and respectful my children were in a restaurant. I say this not to toot my own horn, but that it is an opportunity to share Jesus Christ with those people. My children have "not put me to shame" but instead have given my character and reputation an opportunity to share the Gospel with others, to provide encouragement to others. When we get upset by pronouncements like these, we must ask ourselves if we are thinking of others more than ourselves. I make sure that if I am going to a nice restaurant or to a movie theater, etc. that I don't bring my little children along that would struggle in such an environment and in respecting others. If I can't hire a babysitter to watch them, then I don't go and chance offending others. I also think of my children more than myself by not putting them in a place where it would be difficult to be obedient and respectful. I do not want to "provoke my children to wrath" by placing them somewhere that would cause them not to be obedient.
Lastly, individuals have the right to make expectations for those that enter their property or use their services. We have the opportunity of making declaration by our not using their property or services. That is the blessing of living in a free market economy in a country that at least outwardly espouses freedom. This is a gaurantee in the Bill of Rights (Amendment 3, 4, 9). Others cannot force me to do things with my property that I do not want to do. If someone came over to my house and began breaking things or acting in a manner not allowed in my house, then I have the right to ask them to leave. Such is the case with these laws and based on Phil. 2:3,4, as believers we should respect those who are placing these restrictions and honor their actions.
Why does it have to be all or nothing. What's wrong with a little bit of specialization. Private business should have the right to pick and choose their clientele. There are some eating establishments that are geared toward children, many more are what are considered family restaurants. So, why is it so offensive that a few upscale establishments have put in writing what I have always considered one of those unwritten rules? I have three little ones, and I like to eat out with them, but like every parenting decision, I choose what is appropriate for them. My kids are still very young and are not quite 'civilized', at least not yet:D. When they are older and have learned good manners, it would be nice to take them to a special meal at a special place. I can't see that happening before the tender age of six. Until then I have no problem sticking to a family friendly restaurant, and letting those who would prefer some grown-up time enjoy it.
As a Christian and American, I believe that every business is a privately owned entity, not public as our courts have ruled. I believe as long as it is legal, private business owners have the right to sell/trade what they want to whomever they want for whatever they can get for it. Thus restaurant owners should be the ones who determine if it is smoking or non-smoking, not the government (although I dislike smoking). This would apply to this situation as well. If owners don't want children because they believe it would attract more business, that is their natural God-given right to run their business as they see fit. Likewise if a business owner wanted to make a store or restaurant only for families that should be his or her decision. In the end the market (made up of individual citizens) will determine if the owner has made a good decision or not. Also parents or families demonstrate an opportunity to meet their needs, the market (investors) will open up such a store for the sake of profit. This is called free markets, which is the only economic system that works (when not manipulated by lobbyists or government regulations) with freedom and liberty! I will not judge the motive of the owners of the store to determine whether they are good or bad, Christian or non-Christian, godly or godless. I will simply assume they are trying to run their business in the most effective manner to meet their customers needs and make the best profit they can.
I think that parents these days want to be their childrens friends and "be nice" how does that make you feel Johnny? ... etc.. We should PARENT our children better. They are killings that take place and I can remember when children were protected by the law and given sentances like children. But now since the no spank no repremand thing... they just go out and shoot their parents, teachers or anyone that gets in their way. People PARENT your children, it's a gift from God like the blessing that He gave you to have these children and raise them for the world not for them to be as the world but as God would have them to be. Recent cases in Florida Port St. Lucy a young man hammered his parents to death b/c they told him he couldn't host a party. Also a Miami young man stab'd another young man that had come from Cuba a few weeks earlier b/c he thought that the other boy was taking away his girlfriend. His sentance is coming in the next few hours - could be 22 yrs of life in prison - convicted of 2nd degree murder.
SAD!!!
I find it sad that such measures are necessary. I want my kids to learn to fit into the world we live in and that means exposing them to different things e.g.. theatre, movies, restaurants, weddings. I have 3 children, 6 and older, so I am through the toddler years....Yaay! We used to go to a certain child friendly restaurant so much we knew the menu by heart. That is what you do when your kids are young and can't sit still. But the other parents there know this. Now that they are older, we can go to nicer places and expect them to behave.
I do believe there is a trend of intolerance towards children. The world expects them to be small grown-ups, to sit still and listen to all our wisdom. When they have an opinion, it is generally frowned upon, because they are children. The trend is in churches aswell. Adults do not welcome kids into services if they can't keep quiet. We teach freedom to worship as we please, but the kids have to be seen and not heard. I want to be able to take my kids anyware. They are a part of me, we are a family. If they are not welcome, I am not welcome. If you know your toddler is at a difficult age, go to a place where there is space to run and play, and he won't embarrass you.
I have told people, you are not allowed to give a new parent advice utill you have had a 2 year old of your own, utill then, keep quiet. The judgments you make come back to you with intrest added!
Freedom enables a person and or a business to determine what they desired to participate in or offer. The restaurants that do not wish to serve to children have that choice and certainly there are many restaurants that not only serve but cater to children.
It is nice to go to a nicer restaurant and enjoy a meal without the interuptions of children. My husband and I have 5 grown children and 8 grandchildren and enjoy meals with and without them.
I don't feel that this should be centered on whether they are being 'family' friendly. It's their choice to limit their facility as they choose to and your choice as to whether you eat there.
This is not a moral concern.
I think this is a dangerous trend of intolerance toward children. It also affects parents as well. It is dangerous because it is segregation by parenthood. I can understand a theater or a restaurant which is designed to cater as romantic, but grocery stores! Children are a blessing, but are seen as a hinderance and inconvienice in our current society.
Kids will be kids, just let them be. More of our selfish society, and this "All about me" attitude. "Oh that kid is crying, please make him stop, it is ruining my time in the grocery store." Just wish they would get over themselves.
Being raised in the 50's where discipline, not abuse, was administered, I applaud these restaurants, airlines and movie theaters, etc., for being adults only. I was taught to behave when out in public and you knew if you did not, you were swatted right then and there. A big no no today. And that's the problem. Too many parents just let their children run wild, no boundaries, justifying by saying, 'he's all boy'. Children need boundaries to grow up in a healthy environment. If parents don't let them know who's the parent, who's the child, they will grow up and break their parents' hearts and many wind up in jail for shooting someone when they didn't get their way as adults. Too many parents today say, 'it's all about the child'. No it isn't. That's child worshipping. There are other people in this world to whom they need to show respect. Numerous times my husband and I have been in a restaurant only to have our evening ruined by someone's child who relentlesly screams, hollers, throws temper tantrums, just simply not getting their way. You look at these parents and they are oblvious to what is even going on. They are zoned out. Yes, I feel that if you are paying for a higher dollar meal, paid for 1st class seats on a plane, or whatever the case may be, that we as adults have the right to an enjoyable evening, trip, flight, what have you, without having the constant screaming of a child out of control. There will remain plenty of family friendly restaurants and places for these families to take their unruly children and they can scream and have tantrums with the other children. I'm sure there will be plenty of room in the floor for all of them. I really don't think there is any cause for concern. You have to understand, that many of us Baby Boomers have had enough of being subjected to these unruly children everywhere we turn.
I adore children and have three grown ones of my own, along with two grandchildren. I raised my children to behave with courtesy and manners in public and am in the process of teaching my grandchildren; they are not taught this at home, so it's an ongoing dilemma. I believe that children should be allowed in places of businesses, UNTIL their parents show that they have no intention of controlling their behavior. I leave department stores, I complain in restaurants when no one pays attention to a consistently screaming child, and I even sometimes comment (lovingly) to parents who are ignoring their children. America has become such a place of "tolerance," (and I use the term loosely) that anything goes.
On an airplane, unfortunately, you cannot ask a parent to leave if they are not mindful of a child/children, so that's a tough one. However, on land, it's sad that some very good parents and children must pay the price for those others. Having "child free hours" does at least offer a time when the elderly and those who don't or cannot deal with noisy and misbehaving children can shop without being interrupted. Yet, they're missing out on the love and joy children also bring.
This is yet another subject that the Adversary has distorted; it is another case of his causing confusion and dissention among families and within the church, even. I say we must PRAY.
I have 3 children and 5 grandchildren and love them more than life. I also have taught S.S. at the primary age, am a jr. high teacher presently, and serve in the nursery of our church. I understand the value God places on the family. However,, today parents are not correcting their children at home or in public and they are loud and act out terribly . I really don't think the decision was anti children, it was just anti poor parenting. As much as my husband and I adore children and are blessed by them. we are so annoyed going out for a nice evening and having our evening ruined by children who are out of control...Truly our society has abused children and it grieves me. I really think that restaurant owners are just trying to avoid all of the chaos out of control children bring...It's not the child, it is the oblivious parent!
Jill,
I am so sorry to hear how terribly you were treated in church. I too have been to child unfriendly churches. Please don't give up though, not all churches are alike. I pray you will find a church where you can receive as well as give Christ's love.
The need for eateries that ban children speaks of the selfishness of some parents. When my son was young I rarely took him out to eat because of unpredictable behavior. You should not spoil a meal, funeral or wedding (all of which I've witnessed) because you don't have enough courtesy to take a child out of such a setting. Solutions come from the top down...Always!
While I understand many of the sentiments posted here, I must add and agree that manners and consideration of others are not major values taught lately. I love my children, but if they are disruptive, we remove them. It is unfortunate that our nation's children are not being raised right anymore. This is a symptom of a greater issue.
I agree - children are a gift from God. When our kids were little we did take them many places not normally attended by small children but we knew they were well behaved and, if they started to be at all disruptive, we were out of there. I think the problem that I see way too much of these days are kids that are out of control. Was at a restaurant a while back and the kids were crawling out of their chairs, climbing on the table, crying and yelling and . . . . the parents were doing . . . . nothing. When someone asked them parents nicely to control their kids, the parents became beligerant. I know this situtation use to be the exception; of late, it seems to be becoming the rule. We need to require all parents to listen to Focus on the Family :-) then we could all go back to enjoying family outings! But since that isn't likely to happen any time soon, I can totally understand business owners attempting to maintain some sanity on their premises. It's a statement on a society going "Godless" - so very sad.
Praise the Lord for venues that are child free! Can I get an Amen? I believe they are a welcome change, and as a business consultant and auditor with numerous years experience I see it as a smart and necessary business move for many venues. Personally, I don't think that this trend is society showing a lack of tolerence towards children, but more of a frustration with parents/guardians of children who don't demonstrate appropriate social skills.
I am a father of 8, and a grandfather of soon to be 14, so I have had some experience with little ones and public places. When one our children were acting up, my wife or I would promptly remove the child to an appropriate location (the car, outside, the bathroom, etc.) until the behavior changed. We tried our very best not to disturb the patrons near us to the best of our ability. I see this as appropriate social etiquette. Since certain grown-ups don't seem to understand this concept, and they think their screaming kid is so cute, again I see child free venues as a welcome change.
A final comment; the business practice of allowing or not allowing distrubing patrons can go both ways. There is a movie theater in our area that has started having "Sensory Sensitive Showings" for children with autism. At these showing the volume is turned down, the lights are a little brighter, and patrons understand going in that other patrons may talk during the movie. Can I get another Amen for a business that is thinking outside the box and caring about meeting the needs for this portion of our population. I hope it works out best for them and the clientel they wish to serve.
Unfortunately, like Deb says, a lot of children are not being parented well and that might be part of the problem. However, for me, I find it very ironic that this has come to the forefront whereas I am continually amazed how many people bring their dogs into stores...even grocery stores. When I was a youngster, that was never tolerated. Sometimes, it seems that dogs are being tolerated more than kids are. Though, I totally agree it would be nice to be in "kid-free" movies and restaurants.
Before going anywhere (the store, resaurant) I used to talk to my children (now in their 20's) about behavior before leaving the house, and then again before entering the establishment. I followed through with consequences of misbehavior, leaving if I had to.
Ultimately, I could go anywhere with three small children and I knew they would behave politely.
The problem nowadays, is that parents have not taught their children manners, and thus their unruly behavior in public is truely distressing. It is so common now, that I sympathize with restaurants forbidding children.
A lot of wonderful posts already! I agree with much of what as been said.
I am a childless 40 something and not by choice. I was not able to have children. As a childless adult, I do more than tolerate children, I adore them. I love to see and hear them in public. But there is a limit to how much I want to hear! I have plenty of patience and sympathy for a screaming baby on a plane, not so much in a nice restaurant. Babies on a plane have no where to go, a screaming baby in a nice restaurant can be taken out by the parent. We live in LA and unfortunately there are many parents who not only let the screaming go on, but let their children run around in a restaurant. The management won't (or can't) do anything. Just like people talking loudly on a cell phone at the dinner table, the extra noise is not appreciated when you want a nice night out. I think restaurant owners should have a right to decide who their customers are. I don't really see people tolerating children less, I see parents choosing not to parent. You can usually tell the difference between a kid who is having a meltdown and a kid who really never behaves! Bravo to all you wonderful parents out there - and I know many!
I do not think that these new policies are necessarily a reflection of an anti-child attitude. My husband and I have 3 young children. On the rare occasion we go on a date alone to a nice place, we would not want to be surrounded by loud, fussy children. When you consider how expensive a first-class ticket is for flying, I can't say that I blame airlines for such a policy in first-class. Since families represent a large demographic for businesses I don't see this as becoming an overwhelming trend--the marketplace will, more often than not, want the business of families and not hinder them. There are even those business who cater to such a demographic. I have never been to a Hot Mama clothing store, but I understand that they provide sales consultants who will hold your baby or entertain your kids while also helping you make selections. What I think is going on here is a reaction to poor judgment of some families who perhaps don't consider where they take their children and when, and then perhaps do not handle things well when they go bad in public. It is also likely the result of a permissive culture that frowns on parents disciplining their children, but yet expects these children to somehow respect authority and be well behaved.
Also, on a slightly different note, America is considered to be very child friendly, especially when compared to Europe. I appreciate that our birth-rate has been ticking down for the past few decades. However, I question if that is the result of attitude or perhaps more economic variables that cause young people to delay having children and then facing infertility problems after waiting too long. There actually was a baby boomlet that was widely written about in 2006. As you would expect, it has ticked down a bit the last 5 years as our country has faced high unemployment and various economic issues. My own expereince is that families who have children tend to have more than what I recall from growing up in the 70s/80s, but that is just my own perception and may not be reflected in the data.
There are 2 things at play here: 1. People simply do not want to be bothered by children--this is a sad commentary on the American "me first" culture.
2. There are wonderful children who happen to cry when eating out; there are children who are spoiled rotten and cry when they want their way. In both cases parents need to take into account they are not in their own dining room and try to manage their "child/children".
I'm a grandmother and would never want restaurants to ban children, they are God's gift for tomorrow.
Not everyone has a Biblical vision for their life. Are bussiness owners now supposed to cater to your religion, too?
I think that childless restaurants/shopping hours/etc are GREAT! There are several reasons for this:
1) As an adult, I should be able to choose to go to a restaurant in which I will be guaranteed a quiet enjoyable dinner.
2) As a server, kids are my worst nightmare. I DETEST serving them. They cost less, are more demanding and require large amounts of cleanup, all equating to a smaller tip from more effort. Additionally, as a child, my parents refused to take us to a sit down restaurant until we could behave ourselves and actually enjoy the meal they were paying for. There are restaurants that children are encouraged to come to, run around and scream in, and they cost far less to parents than the Italian Restaurant I serve at. Why on earth would you bring your kids to a restaurant that costs $6-$8 per child, when they won't appreciate the quality of the food as being any higher than that of McDonalds. Do us both a favor- get a babysitter if it's date night.
3) I'm a firm believer that children shouldn't be allowed in stores from about November 15th to January 15th. They are inevitably ill-behaved and a general nuisance to the many people rushing around trying to just get in and out and on as fast as possible. I don't need to be standing in line at Target behind you and your three children all tugging on your arm screaming, crying and kicking, "but I want it NOWWW."
Contrary to what it may appear here, I don't, in fact, dislike children. They do offer a lot of joy and happiness, but there are situations and times when adults should be able to be in the quiet company of other adults. We already can't choose housing based on our preferences for peace and quiet(families are a protected class under real estate law), we should at least be able to escape for a couple hours somewhere...
Children ARE a blessing from the Lord. If we rear them as GOD intended us to. Proverbs speaks of the child left to himself. The child who gives his mother rest. The child who is a glory to his grandparents.
I don't have a passionate opinion either way really.
I tend to not be so bothered by public meltdowns -- I have experienced them and its embarassing...my own experience not as bad as some I've seen...but I think parents are ill equipped to handle things these days --they have bought the lie that sparing the rod is helping their kids rather than hurting them in the long run. They are sold on time outs and tolerance and giving the choices --they have been duped and I think this is a result of those very ideas. Seems to me in times past when parents were 'allowed' to discipline their children children behaved more respectfully...they seemed to fall in line a lot easier. However, today, we tell the parents you'll break their will, you'll hurt who they are and stunt their individuality while at the same time the same people wonder why parents can't control their kids and then throw out these rules to make things more comfortable --out of sight out of mind.
But if we as parents will look to the BIBLE, seeking God's wisdom and guidance in discipline we will find a far better way and as I mentioned we will find rest. Training children starts early on. its not something that just happens. Children aren't born GOOD. We have to TRAIN them, teach them in the way they should go. It is our responsibility as parents. Who are we going to fear God or man? Are we going to let fear govern how were discipline? Some new age movement? No, we have to take a stand. We have to follow God.
Yes, I am aware there are parents that are abusive all in the name of 'sparing the rod spoiling the child'. I am not talking about that. I am talking about seeking GOD, reading His Word letting HIM lead us in how we discipline, train and rear our children. Look at His Son...He turned out to be One of a kind :) so I'm pretty sure He knows how to do it and He can show us if we will only listen.
I have seen kids behave well and not so well at restaurants and I can understand it to a degree. I believe it comes down to the parents and how some totally disregard their children's bad behavior and think it's ok for their kids to be running around and being disrespectful of others. We have 2 daughters now 12 and 10 and we took them out to restaurants with us since they were babies and have taught them how to act in a restaurant. If they aren't allowed to go, how will they ever learn how to act. think it comes down to the parents having control over their children and behavior. I'd be disappointed if any of our favorite restaurants put that policy into effect. I'd let them know and probably wouldn't go as often so they wouldn't get as much of our business.........
I am the mother of six boys and hate to hear about the "kid-free" trend. Although we tried to maintain peace and quiet while at a restaurant, we had many incidences of someone not happy with the situation. If one persisted and truly didn't want to obey, we took him away from the table so not to disrupt everyone. It wasn't always a pleasant experience dining out with our group, but we did use it to reinforce good behavior and manners. Now that several of my boys have boys of their own, we are experiencing some of the same responses in our grandchildren. Parents need to take responsibility for training up their kids, even if it is when they are out in public. Parents also need to discern if where they take their kids is appropriate for the ages of their children. There are some places and events where kids need to stay at home. On the flip side, we have had strangers comment on the good behavior of our boys while dining out when we (mom and dad) thought they were being disruptive! We were greatly encouraged by those comments! It also prompts me to encourage other parents dining out with their children. Responsible parents can raise up responsible children...but there may be some disruptive moments along the way!
I am now a grandmother of 13 and I love each one of them dearly, but a child out of control is not pleasant to be around. Just yesterday while shopping at Walmart, a child in a cart was screaming and crying over and over, "I want to go to the van!" Mom just let her scream and kept shopping. It could be heard all over the store. Finally the father showed up and must have taken the child out. Ah, the peace was so nice!
When we were raising our 3 sons (and we had 3 under the age of 2 1/2 yrs), we would take them out of the store, church, etc., if they were acting up and correct them. Today, it seems many parents just look at their children as if to say, "I don't know what to do", or "I don't care what you do." Parents need help. There is much they can do if they will take the initiative and put all who are in the immediate area out of their misery. A screaming child is not a necessity, but is preventable if parents will take control and give the correction and training needed. then child-free zones would not even be talked about.
I can see where they are coming from. I have 3 kids, but sometimes at resturants and other public places, I have seen someones "little darling" throwing such a fit and causing such a disturbance, that I wish someone would either spank the kid, or ask the parent to leave until the kid is under control.
We do eat out with our kids, but choose "family style" resturants. I think that it gives them a chance to learn how to behave and restrain themselves in publc settings. It is up to the business owner what style of resturant they choose to have. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. I just hope it does not become like the smoking ban, LOL. If you want to go to a resturant where there is smoking, then you should be able to go, if not, then go some place else. It is call AMERICA!! Let us not lose that fredom!!!
In the area we ggew up in, there were few restaurants of ANY kind and definitely none dedicated to children....Mom stayed home and cooked our meal because that's all we could afford. It was an occasional treat to go to a DINER for a burger (or fish sticks, if Mom made us order that) and there was no "messing around" with siblings and no "fussing" (the " LOOK" was all we would needed from either parnet to COOL IT) we were happy just to be doing something different...
However, things have changed and.....
As a empty-nester, We can FINALLY afford and appreciate going to a fine dining restaurant and hoping to spend a quiet time with family and friends. and not to be accosted by unruly children, who are ignored by parents seemingly deaf to the disturbance. Ii is commendable to try to train up the child in manners for the future, but at a certain age, FAMILY FRIENDLY restaurants should be the place to go with small children....the food is delivered faster and there are more distractions there to keep them busy. We expect to encounter some issues in establishments .that are KID FRIENDLY and if the going gets too "rough" because of ignorant parents, ,we either ask for a different table or leave. (both of which we have had to do). I often think , the parents are the ones who WANT this experience with a fine meal and a glass of wine, but the kids really are not READY for it!
I do remember, however, going to a fine restaurant and the woman at the next table mentioned several times to her daughter and friend that they needed to use their "indoor voices".(obviously training her child in manners and etiquette - something that is missing in today's arena)...and that IF they could not, then they would be have to leave and never come to a "nice" restaurant for a LongTIME! Kudos to that parent! And we told her so when we were leaving after a pleasant dining experience for all.
ADULT ONLY FLIGHTS: A friend of mine had orange juice poured on her by a toddler on a flight from NY to London and had to endure the entire long flight in an icky, stickly mess. The mother of the child was oblivious and did not even offer an apology! I guess we come back to parental responsibility or lack of it!
So, yes, I would say that ADULTS ONLY has its place. and in a perfect world, this would NOT even been considered..And,in all fairness to God's littlest blessed creations, you have to admit: NOTHING in any restaurant is noiser that a group of men or women who have had too much to drink no matter how "fine" the establishment!
I agree with Susan. I actually agree with everyone so far even though there are differing opinions. Children are a blessing - we have 3 and 4 grandchildren. We took our kids to kid friendly restaurants but even there we trained them in how to behave in public. They were normal children and so we did have issues from time to time - we spoke to them and told them their behavior was unacceptable and would disturb others around them and if they didn't stop we took them out so it would not bother others. Too many parents don't spend enough time with their kids, feel guilty and worn out and excuse the bad behavior.
I try to encourage parents when I see they have well behaved kids and let them know it didn't go unnoticed.
We had three children and now have 13 grandkids. My wife and I are at an age where we can and do eat out quite a bit. We were at a restaurant just the other night and there was a screaming child at a nearby table. My immediate thought was that 1) the parents have not trained the child to behave properly in public and 2) they therefore should not be taken them out until they can. That may sound a little harsh but we trained out children and there were consequences for misbehaving. The bible is very clear on "training" up children. But we see a tremendous lack in this area even among Christian parents. On the other hand, however, there is a move in our society to break up the family unit. To this extent I vehemently oppose these kinds of "rules" which would separate children and parents. It is not healthy for the long term and can lead to some very negative consequences for our society.
I am a mother of 2 boys. The youngest is a wild child at times, but I discipline him when needed. As I have read the comments above everyone mentioned children's behaviors, but nothing relating to age.
BUT I see this as a form of age discrimination. If resturants, stores, etc banned people over 65 there would be an uproar, but because there are fewer families with children no one seems to be willing to say something. I know that screaming children can ruin an evening but so can people talking constantly on their phone, texting, playing music, etc. Also, as stated earlier families with children spend money, so someone will open or start businesses that cater to families & children.
IT IS THE PARENTS WHO CAN'T CONTROL THE KIDS THAT NEED TO BE
EXCUSED FROM THE RESTAURANTS...BELIEVE ME, IF THEY WOULD DISCIPLINE THE CHILDREN, THEY WOULD AND SHOULD BE MOST WELCOME.
HOWEVER, I'VE SEEN THE HUGE MESSES THAT SOME CHILDREN LEAVE AND I CAN SEE WHY A REASTAURANT MIGHT HAVE THEM EXCUSED TO LEAVE. BUT FOR THE REST OF THE FAMILIES WHO'S KIDS ARE WELL BEHAVED..THEY SHOULD NOT BE EXCLUDED.
I have felt very disappointed by attitudes of others when it comes to children. I feel that the overall American self seekers don't see the vaule of "family friendly" environments. There are already so many friends, family, and public places that make parents cringe. Overall, I feel that we as a country have encourage individualistic thought processes, so why should someone want to be bothered by our children. After visiting African and Asian countries, I am ashamed by my own selfish culture and seek to develope true Biblical friendships which help me "love others as I love myself." I know that there are family friendly events and communities here, so I seek those out. I have even missed out on many events at work with co-workers because the events aren't family friendly. After a day away from my son, I choose things that we can do together.
I am not agree woth childfree restauratns, they are a blessing from our Lord and are arrows for our vows, I think something obscure (homosexual movements) are behind the smoke screens.
Regards, Carlos, Mexico
It never bothered me honestly, restaurants or areas where kids couldn’t go. Having been a child myself and now having children I would think to myself “Someday I will be 80 and not want to be bothered with children just like those other people.”
I am not sure that is true and if it becomes true then the failure isn’t entirely mine.
Forming a response to this topic reaches deep into my child hood, shadow memories, plus convictions, plus current observations all come together like an image reflecting off of a cloud. I hope you can decipher the picture.
When I was a child I had a wonderful Grandfather he always sought to include the kids. I KNEW that when I walked through the door that there would be a hug waiting for me not just for my parents. When the weather was nice, he was outside with us throwing the ball.
He is gone now and with him the passing of something great. Now in our family his children are the captains and they put the kids aside more and they don’t hug the kids when they walk through the door but neither do I. I have my excuses, “So much to do”. I bet Grandpa was busy too.
When children come to my home and I don’t have outdoor activities planned I cringe because of past experiences with children in my home especially boys. They don’t have any respect, manners or common knowledge of how to act in public.
When I was a kid children were included in the church service. Now I am a mother and we recently went to a church that was glorified babysitting. They would put a Christian movie on for the kids and hoped they learned something.
When I was in elementary school I went on a missions trip to Brazil. While there we went to a very poor part of town and our team spoke at a church that was nothing more than a mud building with a tin roof. It was so hot in there. In the front row were the smallest children no more than two years old. I never saw them wiggle, jab, or be distracting to others in any way. I know that it is possible to have a two year old sit and listen for an hour and a half.
When I was a teen my parents had some friends that had a dog. I dreaded going to their house because the dog would stick his nose in places it ought not go and jump on me with its dirty paws making a mess of my clean clothes, ruining my stockings and embarrassing me completely.
To conclude dogs are cute and loyal and have many benefits but when they act like the one I mentioned previously it is difficult to see the benefits while being accosted. Children are blessings from the Lord but how difficult it is to see them as blessings when they are disrespectful, hurtful to my children, rude about the food that is provided, and the list goes on and on. Parents you have failed me and your children and now people don’t want them in their pools and restaurants but can we blame them?
-Mother Of Seven Blessings
Sorry but I will only be patronizing restaurants that restrict child behavior. I will not pay $20 + for a meal or a show only to have the unruly kids at the table or row next to me ruin it. People with no children have just as much right to a quiet atmosphere as any parent who feels they must take junior along to enjoy theirs.
At the very least, separate the parents from the non-parents dining areas.
As a mother of young children, I understand the temptation of wanting a little "peace & quiet" now and then. However.... I do believe that the Lord upheld the dignity of children and that an actual banning would take our nation further in a direction that does not please Him. Yes, I believe that children should learn to behave with respect and consideration toward others, yet this learning does take time. More time than parents sometimes would like (as I can personally attest -as a mom of at least one "strong-willed" tyke).
We need to bear with one another, this includes the little ones AND perhaps their neglectful parents. Keep in mind that often children have yet to accept Jesus as their personal Savior, and many of the parents need Him too. With unregenerate hearts, we can only expect so much. Perhaps seeing disrespectful children in public is an opportunity for us to pray for him/her and the parent(s). We're witnessing sin -which is always unpleasant- but should cause us to be thankful for the Spirit's work in our own hearts, and offer grace -just as Jesus would.
I do think that there are some unfortunate trends in our society:
However, I totally agree that chidlren can be unpredictable no matter how well parented. Also, there are times that adults, as much as they see children as a blessing, might want to enjoy a quieter, more romatic, childless moment. For example, when a couple goes out on date night, it can be distracting and frustrating to hear screaming children nearby. Therefore, I support the concept of child-free dining locations or times of the day. I hope we do not end up at a point where there are no restaurants that will accept children, but I think it is acceptable for a business to make the decision that they will cater to those desiring a "child-free" dining experience.
My children are young adults now, but I had to teach them how to behave in public! It's not something they already knew how to do.
After homeschooling many years, I'm now teaching in a private school and am amazed with the parents. I fell as if I'm rearing parents as well as their children.
The problem isn't with the children, but with the parents.
YES!! I whole-heartedly agree with you. 110%. You have expressed your views, and mine, beautifully.
I had heard about this resturant banning children. I was apalled. I have three children of my own ages 11, 8 and 4. We take them out to resturants, movies, etc. And, are often complimented on their behavior. (Is good behavior such a rarity?) Here's a thought, instead of banning ALL young children from a public place, how about the business just politely ask the patron with the screaming/misbehaving child to leave? Why shouldn't well behaved children be able to enjoy the benefit of a nice time just because there are PARENTS who don't want to raise their own children properly? My own children don't want to hear a screaming/misbehaving child anymore then I do.
I think that babies should be kept home mostly, but when out in public, I think that they should be tolerated, (when screaming, etc.) after all, they do not yet know how to behave/misbehave. I kept my children home when they were infants most of the time, but when I did go out, what a blessing!
And, one last thing..... why is it that a theater is more willing to keep young children out, but are not willing to keep older, but still, under-aged children out of R movies also?
I think that either one of two things will happen... either our society will become less and less tolerant of not just children, but also senior citizens, etc. Or, someone will see a need to carter to the needs of the ones being banned/untolerated.
What a sad commentary on our societal attitudes toward children. Children should be welcomed everywhere. HOWEVER parents should take full responsibilty for their children's behavior. If your child is disturbing others you need to take them out and work with them. Yes, this might mean you miss the wedding, sermon, meal or the movie but that is how little people learn that bad behavior does have consequences. Rowdy kids need to be taken to places where they can be successful in their public behavior. McDonald's might be a good place to start and then move up to more stuctured formal places. Children are a blessing!
My "children" are 20 and 23 yrs old, so the days of crying in a restaurant are over... HOWEVER.. I LOVE seeing families out together and can frequently calm a distraught mother down a bit by saying something like, "I remember when mine were that age and would pitch a fit in a public place. Believe me, It's no big deal. Everyone was once that crying kid!" It's funny how often a little comment can help.
BUT, if it doesn't.... I just have patience. Children ARE a blessing from the Lord, even the ones who aren't mine!
Babies should not be in movie theaters, and small children who cannot behave should not be in them either. When our kids were small we got a babysitter, then went out. I cannot tell you the number of movie experiences ruined because of a crying baby. Just this past weekend I flew from San Diego to Dulles. Our kids did not get to go out to restaurants until they behaved and if they did misbehave, we took them outside till they calmed down. There were two parents whose children were disruptive and screaming and crying and the parents just ignored them. The problem is not so much the kids but the parents who do nothing.
[Please consider the proper use of scarcasim as a litiary tool to enhance thoughtful understanding]
I have 2 children under 15, so I do comprehend parenting and that each child is unique. However, I am alarmed by a trend that in its infancy targets a class of people (i.e. children) which may in the future be modified to target other classes of people (i.e. old people, black people, religious freaks which the law compels they sew a yellow cross or star on their clothing,,,,). I do not believe it is prudent to allow the targeting of a people group. Rather, a business owner should empower their employees to properly respond to the unacceptable actions of an individual. There already exists "we maintain the right to refuse service to anyone" signs...if wanted, they could add to it "...even those with disruptive children."
I understand the desire of business owners. It is a reaction to a culture shift now producing unruly children, the product of (in most cases) parents who themselves generational products of parental neglect and permissiveness. Many of these new adults fail to truley discipline their own children (and by children I mean refer to those around 16 and under), and of course I include those parents who are truly self-centered (you know the ones I mean....where the kids are "latch key" even when the parents are present (...on their cell, ignoring and even not caring what their children may be doing, unable to discipline, this from a personal failure to even know how or why one does discipline. The parents who use anger, threats or uncontrolled violence to merely "clear a space for their own comfort" (not remotely concerned for the standards of society in general). Parents that rather than purposely target an unacceptable behavior or even truly attempt to discipline to shape their children's development as a learning tool, will not take action).
I along with so many men and women in our culture, see that obedient children has become a rarity. But "if one night a woman with a baby decided to attend the theater and just as the "movie" began to play, her "unruly" child started to cry....and she...Lord help us all...spanked it!
I'd be the first one to yell out “Stop those fiddles and let the baby cry,”....“I haven’t heard such a sound in ten years!”
And I'm pretty sure that the ending would still be the same: "According to the story, the audience roared its approval."
Children are definately a blessing from God, but I believe they must be raised in the ways of the Lord. Unfortunately there are too many parents out there who are not qualified to raise children properly. If these parents would work on their parenting skills, it would be fine. But many do not. The child is the one who, in the end, pays the biggest price, but in the meantime there is also collateral damage to innocent bystanders. Case in point, my family was recently at a fairly nice restaurant for dinner. We are not flourishing financially these days, so going out to a nice restaurant is a real treat, and a special occassion we savor. The place was not too crowded, but a table near ours had a young girl (about 4 or 5 years old) who was running around the room, making a racket. The entire ambiance of this upscale restarant was reduced to the that of a pre-schooler classroom during play time.
I really don't think I am being overly selfish or demanding in asking for a pleasant environment to enjoy a meal in, particularly when I am splurging with my family at an upscale restaurant. If the girl's parents would have "reigned her in" to some degree, things would have been fine. It's not like I am expecting complete peace and quiet. But they did not, apparently feeling like part of their experience of eating out should include the young girl acting as if she were playing on a playground.
Since our society has degradated to the philosophy of "I'll do it if I believe I have the right to do it", we have created the need to create more rules, ie. no children under six allowed. It's not the best answer, but unless we find a way to mandate better parenting skills, it seems like one of the few options at this point.
Jim, I think there are plenty of other battles to fight. The problem is that parenting in our country has become so lax, that business owners have to take matters into their own hands.
A lot of parents out there are not raising their children in a godly way. They allow their kids to have free reign at home or running around tables in a restaurant. Many don't even remove their kids when they have a tantrum. Instead they give in to whatever the kid wants.
I don't feel compassion for parents who let their kids run all over them and other bystanders. I feel contempt for them and disgust with what little social capital we have left in this country. Show me parents who have read Dare To Discipline at least once and are earnestly trying to train up their kids and I will have compassion on them. In fact, I'll pay for their unfinshed meal as they take their unruly blessing from the Lord out of the restaurant and allow others to enjoy their evening out. I'll even throw in money for a babysitter for the next time.
Jesus never said, "Suffer the little children unto a nice restaurant."
I agree with the people who are pointing out the root of the problem--most parents today do not teach their children to behave in public. And much of the time, the parents came from homes where they weren't taught to mind either, so are only passing on what they know. It's all about responsibility and accountability, which is sadly lacking in this country. Children are a gift from God, and as such, we should do our best to "train them up in the way they should go." My child is not perfect, but he definitely knows right from wrong and what is expected of him when we are out and about. In a public place, I can tolerate a baby who doesn't know any better, crying, but I cannot tolerate children who are allowed to run wild like small animals.
I think this is another sad reflection of the self-centeredness that is so rampant in our society.
I myself have two sons and think they are the greatest blessing from above. I believe the trend in child free establishments has more to do with adults not parenting their children then childless couples not wanting to be around children. When my son was two and prone to acting out, I did not take him out. We spent most of our time at home so that I could break him of this habit by simply ignoring him and walking away. Once he seemed to get the idea that bad behavior did not receive attention, we started to journey back out again. I rarely go to a restaurant or public place where I don't see children behaving badly and parents either ignoring their behavior, or giving the child whatever they want. It is so bad sometimes that it's difficult to watch, and equally unpleasant to be around. It is alarming to see the amount of children that disrespect their parents.
I believe the trend is parents wanting to be friends to their children and not parent them. We are living in a culture where adults can't even say "no" to themselves, so why would we expect them to be able to say "no" to their children.
I think that any restaurant that had the privilege of hosting Prince and Princess William and Kate in a few years, if they have a new royal child with them, would not hesitate to allow them the same quality service.
Also, I have worked in a restaurant where this one day in particular, a young toddler was upset with how his mother was trying to help him, and so the toddler started screaming. The screaming got everyone in the restaurant's attention, including mine. I went to the table where the child was and made eye contact with the child. As soon as he saw me looking at him and that I was someone who was as curious about who he was as he of me, he stopped his screaming and gave me his full attention, during which time the mother saw the opportunity to do what she needed to do. Afterward, the mother thanked me for helping settle her child.
We live in a very pragmatic culture to the degree that if something doesn't work the way we expect for it to work, we call it broken and do everything we can to get things done our way. Then those who want to tell you how it was designed to work are called narrow-minded. If the baby doesn't behave the way we want, we think the child is being a nuisance instead of trying to figure out the cause of the problem.
This is a problem created by lack of discipline and parents being afraid to control their children's behavior. I am 58 years old and I never remember children, including myself, being allowed to misbehave in public. It's a sign of the troubled times we are in. We are out of the Biblical order which God established and the result is chaos and rebellion. Children need love and instruction but also correction and discipline.
Any business has the right to limit their clientele (no shirt, no shoes, no service, no smoking, etc.) and if they see business suffering due to unsupervised or uncontrolled children, they are making that decision to keep business. I don't see this as a "trend" toward childless couples but rather as parents who need Bible based instruction and some stress-free time. The church should be the answer for both of these. Babysitting services and mentoring programs to help those young, overwhelmed parents are desperately needed in the church today.
I'm never bothered by children who behave themselves in public. It's the lack of discipline on the parents' part that make me very glad this is a growing trend. My parents never tolerated ANY tantrums, screaming, running, etc. from me or my brother. My mom told me she never had to worry about taking us out in public. She knew we would behave. That's just good manners and civilized behavior. If I want to be surrounded by a group of howler monkeys, I'll visit the zoo.
If you think about it, maybe these restaurants are just following the pattern of most churches.....The majority don't like to have children in them either. That's why we have student buildings with student worship and children's ministries during worship. I can't be too hard on restaurants until our churches start leading the way. What is your church like? Do you spend that hour on Sunday mornings worshipping and growing together as a family or are your kids not really allowed?
Jonathan
A couple of thoughts:
Screaming children are very annoying, yet we are told to ignore 'bad' behaviour thereby depriving the child of the attention they seek.
In public however a screaming child should be removed by the parent which often doesn't happen as the selfish adult 'wants' to finish their meal, see the end of the movie, etc.rather than live up to their parental and public responsibilties.
Some children scream because of a unseen medical condition, and for those parents my heart goes out.
Life involves all cultures, all generations and we should try to be tolerant and appreciate what each one of us can offer, how many of us smile when we see a child being carefree, silly or appreciating the wonder of nature? I hate to think of a culture of unseen children, we will all suffer the loss.
I am a mother of twin boys, and I get annoyed with children too. There are times I wish I could go to a "family movie" without having to listen to complete conversations near me.
I think this isn't so much a reaction to less tolerance for children in general, but more of a reaction to the lack of discipline with the average child. Yes, no one can always control their children. But I look at it more like our leash laws. In the US almost everywhere requires all dogs to be kept on a leash outside of your personal property. In Europe, leashes are certainly available but they aren't required. The understanding is that if your dog isn't behaved you will keep them on a leash instead of requiring all dogs to be on a leash because otherwise some dogs will go crazy. I think some places are needing to ban all children because it's easier to ban all children than for a company to come up to customers and tell them they need to leave because their children are too unruly. A company would only be setting itself up for problems if they tried to enforce a "bad children" ban. It is much simpler to ban all children during certain times.
Just this past Sunday I experienced what I first thought were a family of misbehaving children at the local Taco Johns/Good Times Restaurant I decided to take myself to for lunch before heading to the airport to pick up a friend. I was waiting for my food to be ready and as I waited I thought OH my so much for a relaxing, peaceful lunch, I will take my food and eat it outside. Mind you I am a home childcare provider fulltime. I sat there watching and thinking my those little girls are maybe 3 and twins, then there were the three other older boys. One of the boys spilled some of his drink on the floor so rather than add to the problem I decided to just wipe up his spill and say nothing. Then I saw that the parents had sat down without napkins so I got them some napkins and took them to the table and began talking to each child and the parents. This calmed the twins down (distracted them from what they thought they needed to be cranky about) and I learned that they had just traveled from TN to CO and were on their way to WY to see Yellowstone Park. We talked about the area, I wrote down places they could find stores to get snacks and such and some restaurants I knew along the way for them to try. I must say I felt much better for being a calming solution to the over tired fits of those almost three year old twins.
Sometimes we need to stop and take in the entire situation before placing judgement....After all we are all children of God.
I see it both ways. On the one hand, if the child is well behaved, it's a joy to have them around. But if they are not, it can be a real irritation especially to those out to have a quiet dinner.
Overall this trend concerns me as our society continues to devalue children. We do this from prebirth in the form of abortion all the way to senior adults who are not valued because they are not seen as contributors to society. As a society we fail to see the value inherent in each individual as being God given. We can not decide who has worth and who does not based on our perception of their value.
I adore my 3 nieces and 3 nephews. I do take them out in public to kid friendly places. A LOT of parents do not use that discretion and take their children to enviornment where children should not be. Restaurants with bars as an example. In addition 80% of parents today do not know how to make their children behave in public.
The children run the parents. I am single and would like the opportunity to shop or eat without a screaming parent or child present. I believe this is a good thing. I love the idea.
First, I have to say I don't agree with the idea that children, being unpredictable, may have sudden outbursts in retaurants, theaters, etc. I was NEVER allowed to have those outbursts; it's a matter of parenting, and breaking the selfish sinful nature of the child. And I never understood why anyone would take a small child to a public event they would not enjoy. (Really, an infant at the opera?) Now, a kids' movie is different, but the child should still be expected to behave. We are now a society that pampers children to the point where they feel entitled to act as they do, and the sad part is we have a whole generation of these "brats" now raising children! What are they going to act like?
It is clearly the fault of the parents, and these restirctions need to be looked at in those terms. Obviously, the children are not bringing themselves to these places of business, so the rule really is directed at bad parents, NOT children.
Marcia
I have 4 children and 10 grandchildren.. It is a fun day to go to a movie together or out to eat. I don't think its the children but the behaviour of them.
Nothing is more annoying than to go someplace and there are rude misbehaving children. That is a time to encourage those parents. We might be the only encouragement they have that day.
As a restaurant owner, I can understand the frustration with unsupervised & unruly children. Parents need to start acting like parents and train children to be well behaved. I believe that it the biggest part of the problem that I have seen. We have children running around while waitstaff dodge them in an effort not to spill coffee or drop plates on them. If the child were to get injured, you can already guess who would be blamed. It wouldn't be the parents or the child! Staff ends up taking charge and instructing the kids to go back and sit with their parents. We are not there for child care!
I know little ones are sometimes unpredictable. Just yesterday we had a family in with small children. The little one was so loud, I could hardly hear to take the order at the next table. Another table also made a complaint, not to me but I guess indirectly to the parent. If the child is loud and connot be controlled, as a parent I would get my food to go and leave so as not to ruin everyone else's meal.
I love children and I compliment parents who have well behaved children. Society is partially to blame as well because people do not want children disciplined yet we complain when they are out of control.
Thanks for letting me share from the other side.
I work with children as a Physical Therapist and I am sorry to say that some of the children I treat do not have physical disabilities but lazy parents. THey sit propped in the corner of the couch watching TV and then grow into the video games never developing thier trunk muscles or coordination. While in the day cares I experience the children so hungry for physical affection that they run up to strangers and hug their legs. Others scream and carry on over the most basic of tasks. The art of manners, use of silverware and toileting are falling onto the daycare providers.
As a working mother I understand the great fatigue that comes with working then picking up the kids,grocery shopping,cooking, housekeeping, husband working long hours or multiple jobs... and the decrease in patience and time we have. Go somewhere public and listen to the parents of the misbehaving children... some are calm and correcting helping the children to mature, others bribe,scream,curse and berate the child and then give in to the childs demands so they don't have to deal with the child. It makes you want to swoop the child up. It makes me sick to think of what these children live with and are being trained up as.
Overall the courtesy and respect for others is declining in our parenting & in our youth. This is what I believe is a driving force in banning children from places or developing times for people to shop in peace.
I do not beleive this will lead to a complete ban of children from restaruants or theaters. It is not the fussy baby that people object to in my area, it is the old enough to know better children that are creating the unrest (and who's fault is it?).
Children ARE a blessing from the Lord. Unfortunately, our society is more concerned with caring for and training their pets than training their children. As a result, many children are not being trained as they should to know how to behave in these public areas. We can become offended by their behavior, but I think the more appropriate response is to have compassion for those children whose parents may not be accepting their responsibility as parents to train their children. And maybe even compassion for those parents whose parents didn't train them.
Denying children access to these areas won't help either them or their parents. It takes away the child's opportunity to learn, and it's giving the parents one more way of dodging their responsibility. I find I have far less patience with the child who's just throwing a fit than I do with one who is obviously tired or not feeling well. If they are throwing a fit in public, chances are they do it at home, too, and that's often a result of lack of discipline.
However, I do believe this move to have "child-free" places is also a reflection on our self-centered society and what's comfortable for "me." If you've never been there, you have no sympathy, let alone compassion, for those who are struggling with a child's behavior in public.
I have seen a most disturbing trend in parenting, Perhaps parents are so busy they no longer take the time to truly parent, or they don't know how. I have three children and took care of most of my nephews and nieces. They were taught what behaviours were and were not appropriate and to be aware of others needs around them. If they were tired I would not make them trudge through a store etc, because it just would not work and not be fair to them, or those that would have to listen to their whining or crying. However, I find that parents are not teaching their children how to be respectful of others. They go into shops where there are many breakable items and they let them loose. I have seen 10 year olds running around a ladies' apparel dept. Parents no where to be found and I have had to speak to the children. This does not make for a society that is welcoming of children. It is not so much the children's fault as the inability or lack of care on the parent's part. Being a parent is very hard work, as Dr. Dobson put it, "parenting is not for cowards", but I cannot think of any other job that is worth doing very, very well.
As a mother and grandmother I actually do like the idea of having a meal in a restaurant without screeming children. Small children like to move around and dislike being confined to a chair, so it is inevitble that they will cry if not throw a tantrum. It does ruin dinner for those around. If I wanted to deal with that during dinner, I would stay home and invite the grandkids over.
And what about the parents of the small children... they need a break once in a while, too.
I think it's truly appalling to ban children just because they are children! It reminds me of the days when our black men and women were not permitted in a restaurant just because of their color. There is also a small town in Colorado not far from me that wants to discriminate against miners and not have to serve them. Where does this all end?! It's ridiculous!!
Childen need to learn how to behave in public and that is totally up to the parent to teach them this. Parents need to take that responsiblility. Start teaching them at home. If they are allowed to throw fits at home or are not taught manners at home, how will they know how to act in public? When children are tired, they are going to react, too. If you plan to go out, try to get your child to rest ahead of time. If you've been out all day and they are tired, maybe that isn't the best time to take them out to dinner.
I think most people ‘get it’, even if it makes them uncomfortable. Nevertheless, since you ask and we are supposed to be prepared to answer such questions, I will try to explain how humanism relates to the issue. The issue of the blog post, by the way, is the upward trend of marketing child-free zones in otherwise public places. What parents teach, (or fail to teach), their children is definitely a contributing factor but not the issue.
Secular humanists deny the authority of God. Typically, they do not even accept that God exists. If they do entertain any notion of a god (or gods), it is not the relational God who is revealed in the Bible and it has no real relevance in their lives. That is convenient for their worldview because it gives them, (at least in the own minds), the authority to decide what is right and wrong and to judge where their own behaviors fall on that scale. They may, from time to time, go on about issues they feel are elevated above themselves “for the sake of humanity” and governed entirely by reason, but at the end of the day, without a higher authority to adjudicate differing views or by which to base ethics, it is the Self that they must satisfy. Whether it is for material gain, creature comforts, salve for their conscience, intellectual curiosity, or pride, the bottom line is they will seek to do what is right in their own eyes.
I maintain that the increased demand for child-free public places is at least partially due to the growth of humanism in our culture. Humanism exerts an upward pressure from both the “supply side” and the “demand side” of the issue.
Parents have a responsibility to teach their children many things, including how to be civil in public. And it seems there are more and more parents who do not fully honor their parental responsibilities. Responsibility descends from a higher Authority. It stems from a philosophy that humanists reject. Their course, therefore, is to suppress and resist responsibility wherever possible. So we should not be surprised that, with the increase of people embracing humanist philosophy, we would see a decline in parental performance relative to their responsibilities. To make matters worse, more and more new parents lack the parenting skills that their parents were responsible for passing along to them. So now we are beginning to experience the harvest from a growing, multigenerational snowball of humanist-guided parenting and all that follows from that. Let’s call this rising tide of misguided parents and children the “supply side” pressure to expand the availability of child-free public places.
From the other side of the issue, it seems there are more and more people who are either unwilling or lack the kind of compassion and forgiveness required to set aside the inconveniences that children sometimes visit upon their environment. That kind of love only comes through submission to a higher Authority. Again, a higher authority is a philosophical concept that humanists reject. Consequently, humanist philosophy does not empower or motivate them to reliably exhibit forgiveness or compassion greater than that required to assuage their conscience or bolster their pride. As the ranks of humanists increase, the degree of compassion and forgiveness exhibited will decline. This is how humanism expands the market pressures for more child-free public places from the “demand side” of the issue.
Now before anyone gets the idea that believers have it all together and never contribute to the market pressures driving this child-free trend, let me be clear that, as humans, we all harbor humanistic tendencies and we all fall short of “ought” sometimes. But, since believers are willing to submit to God’s authority, they will be equipped and empowered to suppress their human desires if they so choose. Unfortunately, people captured by the philosophy of humanism are guided to resist and suppress the only Authority that is capable of lifting them above their human condition.
My prayer is that the Lord will somehow use these postings to help people who are captured by philosophies like humanism to escape their captivity and find the relationship with God that He desires to have with them.
There is a time and a place to take children out to eat. I have 2 children of my own. When we did take our children out to eat, we made kid friendly restuarant choices and we got them home before their 8PM bedtime.
I also drive a school bus, so I get to enjoy 70 loud children twice a day, plus 30-50 teenagers during the school year.
It is upsetting to me to see parents take their tired children out to a fancy restaurant late in the evening an expect them to act like little adults. It's just not right. It's torture for the children and upsetting to those around them. I believe that if more parent took what's best for the children into consideration, the restuarants would not feel the need to ban children. I believe the parental attitude that 'I want to go out and I will drag my children out whether they need to be in bed or not' is very selfish of the parents.
Banning young kids from a facility is discrimination in my opinion. Why not ban the loud mouth wonman or man who is also disturbing the peace? They're annoying too! I agree kids should be taught to learn how to behave but part of the process is practice. We should all learn a little patience and maybe try to offer encouragement...at least us Christians should be doing this. But, parents should also have some consideration of others and take out the screaming baby until he/she settles down. It's just polite! I think if I owned a restaurant, I'd have a special seating area for young families. Or, like how some hotels have quiet floors. What a great idea, everyone is happy that way! I have three kids and have always treid to teach them how to behave in public, but that sometimes it's more easier said than done. Now that they're older they've masted that skill well, but in the younger years that wasn't always pretty! And lets just face it, young parents don't always know what they're doing! Have patience. Remember,some of these spoilled kids will grow up into spoiled teens and adults...who will we ban then??
I love children and have 4 great grandchildren whom I love dearly,but they don't mind their parents very wel. I don't babysit children that don't mind.
. When my children were babies and cried in a public place I took them outside and feed them, changed them or fixed what ever the problem was and did not go back inside until the baby was quiet. As children they were well behaved and quiet or we went outside and I spanked them. They behaved the rest of the evening. They learned very quickly that when I said "do that again and you will be spanked" I kept my word.They were spanked. They were well behaved out in public, at home, and at church and school..
Majority of the children in restaurants today not only scream, but argue and talk back to their parents, they walk around in the restaurant, up to other peoples tables. The parents must think this behavior is acceptable as they do nothing to prevent it. If this is the type of person they are, just imagine how the parent would behave if ask to control them or to leave immediately. I don't want confrontation between other people in the restaurant when I am trying to have a pleasant meal any more than I want to listen to the kids..
I think that perhaps if you can't afford a babysitter, then maybe it is stretching your budget to even eat out.
As for stores etc., I spend a great deal of time trying not to run over children that are running up and down the isles, or having to ask them to move to one side or the other in order to just walk down the isles. Some of them won't move when you ask them. They just stand there and give you a defiant look.
My vote is to ban them restaurants and have a certain time at other stores that they are not allowed.
I love children, have 3 grown, 1 grandchild and 1 more on the way. The problem is the attitudes of people who cannot tolerate anyone else. Also the way children are raised now they're not taught basic manners and morality and right and wrong are no longer existent. Look at the graphic tees girls, even babies, are wearing Diva, Princess, Drama Queen, etc. This is the attitude children are being raised with that they are priveledged and entitled.
It's sad that public places feel the need to ban small children, but there are times when we go out to a fancy restaurant for a quiet meal and someone's child ruins it by having a tantrum or running around and throwing food, etc. It's not the child's fault. It's the way they're raised. I was in a restaurant one day with my husband and the dad's were in the bar watching the game, the moms were at the table talking and drinking and the kids were running around climbing in the empty booths and making a lot of noise. The moms totally ignored it all. Sad. Take the kids to the park and let them run around, not a restaurant.
Generally speaking though, I would not support a trend toward child free restaurants, etc. It's a sad commentary on how much our society is devaluing life. Blessings...
I have four children. I believe that parents should do their part to keep their kids under control particularly when their children are interrupting those around them. If necessary, a parent should leave voluntarily if the child is that disruptive. I don't tend to be bothered by the children too often but am willing to accept others that are. I find myself in awe of the blessing of children. For me, no other example of God's grace is more powerful. I absolutely believe it is wrong to ban children from those places that are otherwise designed for family or like the grocery store are necessary for all of us to frequent. I am so moved by the scriptures that speak of Jesus rebuking the disciples for turning the children away. I believe this trend will further add decline to the view of a childrens worth.
Maybe as Christians, when we hear that baby screaming or that child acting out across the way or in the seat or the table next to us, we should say a prayer for them and their parent that their need is met rather than wishing them away all together.
Kids are great. I love them and they are indeed a blessing from the Lord. I've been an elementary school teacher for 14 years as a result. My husband and I, who have no children of our own, are blessed to interact with the children of our friends and relatives. Admittedly, we are more blessed by those who provide their kids consistent, appropriate discipline. Nonetheless, we never go to movie theaters partly because of undisciplined children who behave poorly during movies. We find it frustrating to go anywhere in public, whether restaurants, grocery stores, or anywhere else, where parents allow children to behave disrespectfully and disruptively. Kids need to be allowed to be kids, but permitting them to maintain inappropriate behavior without correction is difficult to tolerate. It is also difficult to witness parents chastise children who are exhausted or who are hungry from a long day of shopping without a break.
It seems that a need for "child-free" restaurants or shopping hours has become necessary due to a failure of parents to be in tune with their children's needs for appropriate discipline, play time, sleep, etc. While I think private businesses have every right to institute "no kids" policies, I would be horrified to find towns or states legislating such policies.
One thing that factors into "Childless" signs is the fact that many young parents are clueless on how to teach children to be self-controlled. The parents ignor screaming children, doing nothing to quiet them and let them know this is not acceptable behavior in public. Sometimes I can hardly wait to get out of a store or restaurant because of the incredible noise! Yes, my children tried to throw a fit in a store, but after a quick trip to the car, they learned I would not tolerate that kind of behavior so they'd better not try it. Also, childdren need regular rest and meals on time. If they are tired and hungry, of course they will be cranky.
On airplanes I know that little ones' ears can really hurt and infants can't control their crying. But 5 yr. olds kicking the back of your seat and yelling for 5 hour flights is intolerable. Parents are to blame more than the children, but I can understand the backlash from others.I have referred many young couples to the Focus on the Family website to get help!
The utter lack of discipline that exists today makes being around most children a very unpleasant experience. It's a shame that this will penalize the (few) properly raised and disciplined kids, too, but I have to say "Hurray!" Most parents are just too uninterested in their children's behavior, unless it's going to cost them money. I work, unfortunately, in a low-paying retail job, and it seems that at least 75% of the kids that come in the store are disruptive, and their behavior is ignored by their parents, or, at best, the behavior gets a "warning" which is no better than a bluff. These parents never follow through, they just keep spewing threats that the kids know full well will never be acted on.
When I was a child, all it took was a certain look from one of our parents to settle us down! And that's not because we were in any way abused - they very rarely spanked us. We were simply raised without bluffing, and we knew "no" meant "no," and that if we got the "look," we were about to cross the line. I feel like there should be a few kid-free zones in which to find refuge, given the uncaring attitude of so many parents today.
I think it's ok. I do believe the stage of life you were end will greatly determine one's reaction from such a thing. I am a Christian homeschooling mother with 5 children, 4 of them now teens. I LOVE young children (especially babies) and have a degree in Early Childhood and Elementary Ed. When my kids were little i would have taken offense to this idea. But, now that I am at a different stageof life, I can understand and appreciate the concept. If I pay alot of money to go our to dinner, which is not often. I do appreciate the quietness of the atmosphere as much as the food being served.
I too am a mother.... however, I agree with a few here in that when we do get to go out I don't want to have children running amuck or hear a yapping, screaming child! I also have seen where the parents just keep talking and ignore the child thinking he/she will quit crying. It's okay if it works for them at home but out in public is not the time to do this at the expense of others. Bottom line is I do believe there should be child free times at restaurants especially!
Every person commenting made GREAT points! I think their can definitely be a balance. I was so relieved that when my boys were small, we could take them anywhere. A few times we had other patrons tell us that it was nice to see a family pray in public before we dove into the food and that our boys were well behaved. THEN the little girl came along and we couldn't take her anywhere! She was difficult and defiant in public. If I didn't want to deal with it at home, there was no way I would expect others to tolerate her behavior. Thankfully, it was short lived! I can empathize with parents who do want to have a night out as a family, it's a good thing but I don't think children should be banned just because they're not adults. Like most folks, I have no time for parents who let their kids run the show especially in public and I do think the management has the right and should say something when a situation is getting out of hand. Working in a salon and with how much those kids love to play on those chairs, I have had to play their parent many times.
To quote Linda earlier, I too think we are a dividid, anti-family, irritable, unforgiving, angry, selfish society! Banning kids at one end and worshipping them at the other is a perfect breeding ground for the next generation to be all of these things and worse! I shudder at the thought.
I have enjoyed many years teaching middleschool students and have raised two children of my own! I love children! I am retired from teaching and the only thing I miss about my job is the kids.
The problem, increasingly getting worse over the years, is the lack of discipline in the schools and in the home. Just one undisciplined student can disrupt the learning of a classroom full of students.
This has caused a business in the Adirondacks to post a sign saying, "Unruly children will be given a latte and a free puppy." We have heard business after business express their frustration about the behavior of unruly children. In this age of 'entitlement' and selfishness, people are no longer concerned about 'loving God and loving others.' This might include taking responsibility for the behaviour of your children so that others can live in peace.
There are numerous verses in the Bible that address the importance of discipline! Children want and need discipline so that they feel loved and secure. We who are children of God receive the same from Him! We have departed from the clear teaching of Scripture and are failing our children.
Do we christians reflect the heart of Christ toward children? Receive them, love them, bless them. They are people equal in value to others. I definitely would not go to a place of business that refused to serve other groups of people, so I wouldn't support any that are prejudiced against our most precious blessings. This trend is reflective of our 'culture' - despising what is most sacred to our Lord.
We have 4 precious children, now ages 16, 13, and 10 year old twins. We have always ,from the time they were babies, taken them to restaurants, stores, church, etc. We have trained them how to behave in public places and that running, screaming, being loud and boisterous is for outdoors!! If my children acted up and distracted others in a restaurant or store, we carried them to the bathroom for a serious talk or attitude adjustment which ALWAYS worked. It let them know that we would not tolerate bad behavior!! We love our children so very much, but part of loving them is training them in the way they should go!!! Letting kids throw fits and acting like you have no control over them will not serve your children well .
As far as a childless restaurant or store, I think it is fine . In our many years of parenting, we had to try to squeeze in a date night about every 6 months! It never failed that we would get to a restaurant and be seated next to 2 or 3 screaming , fit throwing children!! We had just left our kids at home to have a little adult conversation and a little quiet!! People need to understand that letting children rule the home and every situation you are in is what has caused these rules to be set in public places!
Several readers have alerted us to the fact that the original news report concerning Whole Foods and “childless shopping hours” was not accurate, and we’d like to offer a clarification. Several Whole Foods stores are providing parents the option of shopping without their children; however, store employees are watching and caring for their little ones during that time.
Tessa
FOTF Moderator
I'm not positive, but it seems a lot of the issues I see in restaurants and stores is that the parents aren't parenting. Some days it seems every store I go into has a crying/whining child that is not being dealt with. Whether the child is throwing a fit or whining and crying because of tiredness, feeling sick, or because the child didn't get the toy he or she wanted, whatever the case, I see more and more parents not handling the situation well.
Some reasonable suggestions:
If shopping, a parent could put their cart aside, and step outside of the store to tend to their crying child (or sit in the car), leaving shoppers to shop in peace.
At a restaurant, taking the crying child to the restroom to tend to would be a good option, allowing the other restaurant patrons to eat in peace.
On an airplane, perhaps they could designate a room for crying children, like a "cry-room" at a church, where the parent can tend to the child away from the rest of the passengers.
For whatever the reason the child is crying, I think a parent should be aware of their surroundings and give other patrons a break if at all possible.
I think that is the problem though, many parent's have such a lax idea of discipline and no reguard for other people they don't remove the child from a situation. we went to see a family movie and a family brought a tiny baby. After the movie started the baby began to cry. The parents handed the baby back and forth and shhhed for a while. Finally my 8 year old yelled -- would you please take that baby out I can't hear the movie. All this got was a dirty look from the Dad and the Mom saying "we paid for this movie too" My son was taken out and told that was not the way to handle the situation. Fianlly after a scene and some very inappropriate words the Dad walked out with the baby -- and came back in 5 minutes later when he was asleep.
Most People just don't think of others anymore. Not everyone wants to listen to your child whine, scream and carry on in any public place. Yes the answer is to walk out but that would be an inconvience to the parents. Our son has special needs and I go out of my way to make sure his behavior doesn't bother people. There are times i would like to go out to dinner and not have to see children acting up. We have turned into a very me centered society. Children are not disciplined the way they were years ago. There is little respect for adults and adult times and spaces. Well behaved children act up at times -- I think its the parents that need to stand up and be parents and take responsibliity for what is happening not just banning children.
I absolutely agree with child-free restaurants. Many times my friends and I have gone out for a nice dinner only to have it ruined by a screaming child seated at the next table. The parents choose to ignore the noise and the rest of the people in the restaurant have to suffer. I have no problem with well behaved children but those who are screaming and running around with no control should not be tolerated. Adults have rights too and should not have to be subject to properly behaved children or screaming babies. My parents did not take us to sit down restaurants until we learned to behave in public. At the very least, couldn't restaurants seat people with children away from couples and other adults? It is very annoying to be seated and then have a noisy family seated at the next table - especially in an empty restaurant!
Nick -- I totally agree w/ the movie analogy. I am a step-parent of a young girl (now 12) whose mom let her see R-rated movies regularly from the time I knew her (age 7). There would be an uproar if their children couldn't see a movie THEY deemed ok to see. Parents would say it's "controlling" to not allow their child in. I personally don't even like alot of the PG-13 choices, where the content is way beyond that which a 13 year old should be seeing.
However, in a restaurant, the yelling/screaming/running around turns customers ($$$) away, esp. the older empty-nesters who would not have tolerated such behavior. It adds cost for cleanup, breakage, and irritation. I don't think all restaurants will follow it...just the ones which are probably too pricy for children to have their own meal.
I'd like to see a little more historical perspective before anyone calls this an anti-child/anti-family trend. Remember that in most middle class families and all those of the upper classes in England and most of Europe before WWII, very small children (babies and toddlers) ate in the nursery with their nanny. Older schoolchildren would usually eat in either the nursery or the schoolroom with the nanny or governess with occasional exceptions for special events. Only a young lady who had been presented to society would be included with her elder brothers at any dinner parties her parents held. Children were NEVER taken out in the evening to venues where adults congregated (theater, opera, restaurants, and the like) so this issue would have not arisen. If you doubt it, read anything by Jane Austen; Peter Pan makes reference to Wendy having to leave the nursery and start preparing to come out in society as an adult.
I believe this trend has more to do with the lack of teaching discipline to young children by their parents than a trend against having children. Parents today do not discipline their children or teach them how to sit at the table and behave until the adults are finished dinner. I have nothing against children in restaurants, grocery stores or movie theatres as long as they are old enough for such venues and as long as their parents watch them and make them behave appropriately. Parents seldom care for constructive criticism when it comes to their children so other patrons of these businesses are at a loss for a solution when children ruin a good time.
Economic times have forced consumers to choose carefully what they spend their money on for entertainment and social gatherings and therefore don't want to risk children ruining their hard earned entertainment/social events.
I do not believe in age discrimination, young or old. I do believe children should be taught acceptable behavior in shopping areas and eating establishments. Parents should choose carefully where they take their children, especially to dine, if they are going through periods of disturbing behavior, as can occur for a span of time - I speak from experience, I have 2 sons and we ate mostly at McDonald's, Krystal, etc., or home, during their primary years (0 - 9). Mothers shop during school hours if possible and will be accompanied by their infant child. I notice Trader Joe's actually is child friendly, has child size carts the little ones love, and again these require parental supervision so they do not run playing with the carts. So far so good.
When I was growing up, my dad was in the restaurant business and our family would often go out to sit down restaurants to eat. I remember going to a local restaurant when our kids where young (over 20 years ago) and watching the manager visit every table, but ours. The kids were very well behaved. We never went back there again.
But, recently it seems that more and more people aren't disciplining there kids and let them run wild, making excuses for their bad behavior rather than taking the time and being disciplined enough themselves to train them.
I don't blame restaurants for not wanting these "kids" as customers.
It happened to me. While shopping with my two daughters and two grandchildren we stopped in a quaint restuarant for lunch. We were greeting coldly and told they did not have children seating. At first I felt insulted but then thought " How sad for you". I will never use your services for my family or business. It would be wise for establishments to think twice. Yes , children are a blessing and one of my favorite passtimes is out for lunch with my family.
When I was growing up you rarely saw an entire family eatting out. Today restaurants are full of families,I don't really feel people object to children being at a movie or a restaurant, the problem lies in parents who do not take those around them into consideration. No one cares to hear a fussing child or screaming child when they are trying to have a pleasant evening. I fell it is rude to subject those around you to this. When our children were small and they were acting up in public we left the place and got our food to go or we stepped outside to calm them. We did not subject everyone else to their behavior. It seems that so many parents think well if I have to deal with it so do you. How about staying home until your children learn how to behave or are old enough to be in a public setting without throwing a fit ,when they do not get their way. I honestly feel that we don't have a society that doesn't tolerate children as much as parents who do not parent. The children run the family instead of the parents, it is child centered parenting instead family centered. No one want's to stay home anymore and raise their children. Instead we have families running around constanly with very little structered home time. You certainly cannot blame the child or the public when you have failed to parent and discipline your children.
I actually think it's a good idea. If I want to spend quality time with my wife at a restaurant, I would prefer not to have to deal with children interrupting an expensive, intimate evening. Of the millions and millions of restaurants out there, I see no problem in having an "adult only" place to enjoy a quiet meal. With today's "tolerance" of unruly children and the inability of most of the public not willing to act like parents to their children, it would be a welcome relief to have some other place to insulate oneself from the growing spector of noise, unruliness, and general disregard for other people.
It seems to me that yes, these businesses are responding to a devaluation of children in society, but not so much in the way some might jump to conclude. Sometimes we Christians are the quickest people I know to jump to a conclusion or judgement without stopping to think objectively first. We need to be more careful about that because it's an embarassment to all of us when we throw our God-given logic out the window. I'm speaking toward myself as well here too. We all need to be slower to anger and slower to speak.
The world has placed less and less value in its children for decades -- sending them off to be cared for by strangers from babyhood to 18, not putting aside quality time for them, not having patience to listen to them and see the world through their perspective, etc etc.. In essence, we, as a society, are raising obnoxious, bratty kids. Restaurants and businesses have to find a way to deal with the hoolagans we're bringing to them. Granted, some babies and toddlers are just born difficult and fussy. My first was like that. So I didn't take him anywhere that he'd be disturbing others. A lot of kids under 6 throw tantrums and misbehave, though, because their parents have given them rule over the family. My husband and I help with the kids' programs at church, and even the 10+ year olds from "good godly families" are horribly disrespectful and out of control. A restaurant owner may or may not love kids, but they still have to consider what environment they're offering to all of their customers. You can love the kid and still turn them away at the door, based not on seeing kids as "lesser" but on the fact that their parents let them become monstorous either by allowing someone else to raise and guide them, not disciplining them consistently themselves, or usually both.
Hi, I am not opposed to children in restaurants, theaters, etc. BUT in a nice restaurant or any in a theater when some couples are out for an entertaining evening disruptive children can be a problem. Today's parents are quick to pick up the little ones and take them out for awhile to quiet them down. They sit there and let the child cry. I have seen this happen time and again. I even seen couples let their children run around their table at restaurants and thinks it is cute, when they are putting their children at risk of being injured and the wait staff at risk of being injured while serving food or carrying empty dishes to the kitchen.
So, there is a time and place for families and I don't fault some restaurants or theaters from not letting children in their places of business. It is not that they don't like children, it is just that they would like their place to be a place where couples can enjoy a quiet dinner and a movie without disruption. That is not so bad.
Even parents who leave children at home would like a quiet evening without having to listen to someone else's child be disruptive.
There is a time and a place for families to enjoy themselves and for couples who want some time without children.
I love children but absolutely don't think they need to be in all places at all times. There's nothing wrong with childless restaurants or movies or even shopping areas. And nothing can be more frustrating than to be on a plane, where you absolutely can't get up and leave, when there is a crying child. With less and less parents being more and more neglectful when it comes to controlling their children's behavior in public this may be a trend. Again, it's not the responsibility of the place but of the parents. Afterall, wasn't it the church who first started "encouraging" parents to leave the children in the nursery and childcare facilities, rather than bring them into the sanctuary?